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Bjorn Against

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183. Depends, in some cases it is voluntary in other cases not so much

Reply to apples and oranges (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 08:49 PM

Dec 2011

Like any religion the Islamic faith has their reasonable followers and they have their extremist nutjobs who want to force their beliefs on everyone else. The are some Muslim women who choose to wear a hijab and there is nothing wrong with that, but when it is forced on women that is a problem and it is forced a lot more often than you would like to believe, women are treated horribly in many parts of the Islamic world.

In American culture we also enforce standards on women's dress that is discriminatory as well however. In American culture it is acceptable for men to go topless but women can get arrested for it. You may think this is different, but that is only because we view things through our own cultural lens and justify restrictions in our own culture while condemning restrictions in other cultures. In many parts of the world it would be completely acceptable for a woman to walk around topless, and when you think about it our culture is not that differen from Muslims in regards to requiring women to cover up although granted women do still have a lot more rights here than they do in Saudi Arabia.

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To those who think the Muslim scarf/hijab is oppressive to women [View all] apples and oranges Dec 2011 OP

It's oppressive to women, and yes, I've watched the show. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #1

"It separates them from Americans" jberryhill Dec 2011 #2

Have you ever looked at Amish males? Do they look like they're wearing hot jeans, cool tops? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #5

Yes, thank you. I can't tell you how many times I've seen, at Disney World in June, iris27 Dec 2011 #8

Absolutely! Past summer I ended up behind a couple, her, covered head to foot, him, nice and cool Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #16

It's a common sight here in Dearborn, too. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #18

"maybe all that cloth was nice and cool somehow (I had no idea how though)" boppers Dec 2011 #115

Then why don't all desert tribes adopt black shrouds? riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #175

What part of Light Wicking Fabric don't you get?> Vincardog Dec 2011 #207

"Light wicking fabric" is not what they are wearing. They are not wearing Cool Max gear riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #209

I live near many Muslims AngryAmish Dec 2011 #129

I've seen catholic men and nuns too jberryhill Dec 2011 #22

These are clergy. Further, both nuns and priests dress in garb, not just nuns. Next point? nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #35

What difference does it make? jberryhill Dec 2011 #46

It's discrimination, it's patriarchal, it gives women no rights, it separates women Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #55

Compelling women to wear or not to wear something is wrong jberryhill Dec 2011 #65

I think I've been quite clear. If you choose to pretend obtuseness, that's your issue, not mine Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #66

You know, it may be because the women in these communities fear sexual assault if they are not CTyankee Dec 2011 #229

I think it is fear. I have Palestinian clients. When they come in to meet with me... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #241

Sexual assault has nothing to do with clothing (or the lack thereof) riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #244

Of course it is a crime of power and control. That doesn't stop fear of it. Obviously, clothing has CTyankee Dec 2011 #247

Clearly you are an educator. riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #249

I don't think I explained this as well as I should.... CTyankee Dec 2011 #251

Aren't 99.9% of religions misogynistic? justiceischeap Dec 2011 #252

I have read any number of articles about Muslim women in Western societies. tblue37 Dec 2011 #105

Yes! I was in Paris the day that ban was enforced, on a muslim woman at the Louvre (of all places!). CTyankee Dec 2011 #242

France, especially has a very strong secular culture that extends back hundreds of years riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #245

When Jacques started complaining about all the non-French people coming into France, I CTyankee Dec 2011 #253

Bad analogy. Nuns, a tiny subset of Catholic women, who do NOT represent catholic women as a whole whathehell Dec 2011 #62

So to be a Real Amercian(tm), you must wear hot jeans and a cool top? Rex Dec 2011 #39

You must've misread. Muslim women are not allowed to blend, whereas Muslim males LOVE to blend Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #42

In America they can do as they please jberryhill Dec 2011 #48

You are aware, aren't you, that it is possible for a woman to embrace patriarchical norms Vattel Dec 2011 #205

Yes jberryhill Dec 2011 #206

No one is claiming that we should. Vattel Dec 2011 #208

You really need to confront the reality of these women's lives. CTyankee Dec 2011 #243

Not all Muslim males LOVE to blend. The gentleman that I work for ScreamingMeemie Dec 2011 #89

I find people who live in South America speak faster than those in North America. boppers Dec 2011 #116

I was going to rant on "American" is more that USA, but decided not to uppityperson Dec 2011 #141

That's probably a good thing. whathehell Dec 2011 #154

I see main-stream americans dressed/coiffed like that on every college campus and bar I've been to. PavePusher Dec 2011 #70

FWIW, here is a picture explaining the difference between hijab and niqab. Amish aren't "American"? uppityperson Dec 2011 #83

Thing is both Amish men AND women have adopted a dress code LynneSin Dec 2011 #149

You explained it perfectly! That's exactly what it is. nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #150

I don't have a problem with dress codes LynneSin Dec 2011 #158

Exactly nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #166

Of course I've seen the way Sikh men dress. AND SIKH WOMEN. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #9

The OP is about the hijab jberryhill Dec 2011 #51

Do you consider yourself to be judgmental? Quantess Dec 2011 #78

Yes, it does. Most emphatically. Liberals would prefer that it doesn't, but it does. saras Dec 2011 #29

So, what are the standard "American values" one must adhere to to be part of the cool club? n/t PavePusher Dec 2011 #72

actually, if you are born here you are American. Jeez. If you are going to wheeze about the roguevalley Dec 2011 #100

omg. That is one of the oddest "american" definition I've ever read by a Duer uppityperson Dec 2011 #104

omg....What part of the word "irony" do you not understand? whathehell Dec 2011 #157

However, American values is not in those quote marks uppityperson Dec 2011 #160

Riiiiiight. whathehell Dec 2011 #171

"It separates them from Americans."--- "Yes, it does. Most emphatically." uppityperson Dec 2011 #172

No more than my western dress would separate me from most women in Afghanistan whathehell Dec 2011 #177

Except "western dress" wasn't the term. Fail uppityperson Dec 2011 #188

Fail yourself: You don't even know what "western dress" is in this context. See post 198 whathehell Dec 2011 #199

Amazing how you change definitions, expand or narrow them, to fit your view uppityperson Dec 2011 #200

Um..No again..I never changed definitions...You "defined" it along narrow national lines, whereas whathehell Dec 2011 #201

It separates us from OTHER Americans, yes. aquart Dec 2011 #33

This has nothing to do with tribal instincts - this is outright gender discrimination Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #44

You are talking about tribes *within* Muslim society. boppers Dec 2011 #117

Are you sure you watched? Because half the women in the show, apples and oranges Dec 2011 #15

Sure I've seen it, and the one that is completely a master of her own life feels constantly attacked Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #34

Well said. - n/t Zenlitened Dec 2011 #76

"It separates them from Americans". WTF? What the heck is "American dress"? uppityperson Dec 2011 #82

that little grayhound is awesome roguevalley Dec 2011 #101

He's "haram" in Islam, though. MADem Dec 2011 #226

Lose the faux outrage....What you're speaking of is more properly known as "western dress" whathehell Dec 2011 #178

Except that is not what was said. If you want to get specific.... uppityperson Dec 2011 #191

Um, no..Western refers to the "western" part of the WORLD, not the "western" part of this country whathehell Dec 2011 #198

NO. The headscarf must cover the hair and neck entirely. MADem Dec 2011 #213

Ah, you mean like this? uppityperson Dec 2011 #214

Why are you showing us a photo of an actress, in make-up, mis-wearing a nun's habit, MADem Dec 2011 #216

well said and well written Tumbulu Dec 2011 #92

actually, I wear one because of the cold up here and they are awesome. roguevalley Dec 2011 #99

Muslims aren't Americans????? Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #111

You paint with a broad brush. Skidmore Dec 2011 #121

A style of head and body gear that is required upon threat of punishment (and even death)... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #139

+10 n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #180

The truth is, though, that men have more latitude than women when it comes to dress. MADem Dec 2011 #217

I lived in Iran for 10 years Skidmore Dec 2011 #220

Have you been there since Shah left? MADem Dec 2011 #222

Yes, I was there Skidmore Dec 2011 #224

My observation (and, as you see in the 2nd video) is that the "chemical veil" as you call it, is not MADem Dec 2011 #225

Sorry to see that semantics distracted from your point. redqueen Dec 2011 #147

Thanks! nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #148

If you are brainwashed from a young age a lot of times it sticks snooper2 Dec 2011 #3

From what you've seen Codeine Dec 2011 #4

I think a lot of people confuse hijab with the full cover-up that hides the face. Withywindle Dec 2011 #6

"facial expressions being pretty much the most important" boppers Dec 2011 #118

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to marginalize ASD people. Withywindle Dec 2011 #145

It very much gets in the way of some things. MADem Dec 2011 #234

Completely voluntary? Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #7

+1 iris27 Dec 2011 #11

I totally agree. The males can wear anything they want - and they do!!! Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #12

The attitude among men in muslim cultures is Quantess Dec 2011 #19

Quantess, you're absolutely right. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #32

Patriarchal religions are oppressive to women and those are pretty much all we've got. aquart Dec 2011 #36

All the more reasons we should be honest and speak up when we see the signs of opression bettyellen Dec 2011 #106

"and blended in perfectly with the rest of American society" jberryhill Dec 2011 #24

Nuns are an anomalie. Quantess Dec 2011 #27

I think my explanation was more accurate and certainly less judgemental....A "backwater provision"? whathehell Dec 2011 #124

Also, I live in europe, not sure if that makes a difference to you. Quantess Dec 2011 #31

Ummmm... I didn't reply to your post jberryhill Dec 2011 #45

Oops. okay, sorry! Quantess Dec 2011 #53

I obviously have confused you, so let me be clear. I have ZERO patience with male-ruled societies Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #59

Where would you stand on matriarchal societies? 11 Bravo Dec 2011 #85

Where would that be? Maccagirl Dec 2011 #134

I wasn't offering a geography lesson. I simply asked what your response would be to such a society. 11 Bravo Dec 2011 #174

I haven't seen a nun in a full habit in the USA since the late sixties/early seventies. MADem Dec 2011 #218

I cordially invite you to any of a number of festivals in my area jberryhill Dec 2011 #219

Take pictures next time you're at one of those things. It's not a common thing in the rest of the MADem Dec 2011 #223

"The males can wear anything they want - and they do!!!" boppers Dec 2011 #119

Or wear dresses of most sorts? uppityperson Dec 2011 #142

Indeed, Sir: That Is the Rub The Magistrate Dec 2011 #13

I question yours -- and others' -- use of the phrase "purely voluntary" Remember Me Dec 2011 #63

You Are Shooting At Someone On Your Own Side, Sir The Magistrate Dec 2011 #73

Try black Hijab when it is 120+ outside and get back to me if you don't think it is oppression JCMach1 Dec 2011 #95

I live in Dearborn, Michigan. I think this is a simplistic take. Romulox Dec 2011 #10

I agree (in Westland) most don't. Although it is certainly sufrommich Dec 2011 #25

Hi su. I am a JGHS grad! Romulox Dec 2011 #37

Holy Crap, so am I!! sufrommich Dec 2011 #54

As long as there are significant portions of the world where women are beaten or even killed aint_no_life_nowhere Dec 2011 #14

You have identified the very heart of the issue etherealtruth Dec 2011 #230

I think uncomfortable shoes, business suits, and neckties are oppressive. hunter Dec 2011 #17

Get a kilt. boppers Dec 2011 #120

try a skirt, pantyhose and heels TorchTheWitch Dec 2011 #250

It is not completely voluntary everywhere Marrah_G Dec 2011 #20

It is no more or less "oppressive" than Amish women wearing their caps. kestrel91316 Dec 2011 #21

Surely you don't mean that -- ? Remember Me Dec 2011 #68

You should talk to my sister in law...member of a fundy church. peace13 Dec 2011 #164

if subjugating your entire being OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #173

It goes back to those nasty ol' personal freedoms. peace13 Dec 2011 #186

And I don't think that free choice to wear what one wants or worship how they choose OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #192

Who's we? peace13 Dec 2011 #193

really? Scary? OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #195

Oh please....Of course it is. whathehell Dec 2011 #240

Of course it's voluntary in Dearborn, Mi. How could sufrommich Dec 2011 #23

But if the men in the family pressure or threaten a female tblue37 Dec 2011 #107

people can be oppressed regardless of laws Marrah_G Dec 2011 #138

Why do you think the TLC puff piece represents the experience of all ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2011 #26

It's not the scarf, it's the religion that's oppressive. Scarves don't stone women to death saras Dec 2011 #28

Yeah, whatever....The scarf, acorrding to many muslims, is part of the religion's modesty dictate whathehell Dec 2011 #123

Isn't it amazing how beautiful those women are in their scarves. peace13 Dec 2011 #165

I don't find the scarf particularly "beautifying", whathehell Dec 2011 #170

To each his own. peace13 Dec 2011 #185

"To each his own"....Yes, if that were only the case! whathehell Dec 2011 #228

It does attract attention riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #246

Hair is associated with beauty. And of course, every damn thing is associated with sex! MADem Dec 2011 #227

Exactly! whathehell Dec 2011 #232

I had to laugh at the recent ruling about cucumbers and carrots.... MADem Dec 2011 #233

OMG....Are they for real?...Seriously...This is like the whathehell Dec 2011 #236

If you look upthread, you'll see a few videos I linked over here of the MP at work in Iran. MADem Dec 2011 #238

No one can tell me that what you're describing is not sick... whathehell Dec 2011 #239

Islam dictates that women dress modestly ... etherealtruth Dec 2011 #231

Voluntary! LOL! aquart Dec 2011 #30

I'm neither Muslim nor woman Jack Rabbit Dec 2011 #38

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #41

LOL!!! Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #49

condescending is so sad. Truly. I am however terribly glad that you are standing point to roguevalley Dec 2011 #102

I'm not a Muslim but I am a woman... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #112

Yeah, sure.. whathehell Dec 2011 #126

I haven't seen the show, but I friends with actual women who are Muslim and uncovered REP Dec 2011 #40

Another take loyalsister Dec 2011 #136

I think handmade34 Dec 2011 #43

Males do not force females to wear high heels - and they are but one of many options of dress Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #47

Many men do indeed dictate what their wives wear jberryhill Dec 2011 #50

I'm sure, and some people are pedophiles. What does that have to do with a patriarchal society? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #56

In the US, any woman should remove herself from such an organization if she wants jberryhill Dec 2011 #60

Some do. Guess we should call for a banning of high heels! Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #113

Oh please... whathehell Dec 2011 #131

Let me put it this way: I think religion is oppressive to humanity Taverner Dec 2011 #52

You won't get too much argument from me there! nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #57

We DO agree on some things Taverner Dec 2011 #58

It does that. And it controls minds. nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #69

Yes I like to think of religion as adware or spyware in your brain Taverner Dec 2011 #75

Maybe, but according to many muslims, the head and other body part coverings are "cultural" whathehell Dec 2011 #132

I knew a progressive, independent muslim woman Blue_Tires Dec 2011 #61

Some people object to women having a choice one way or the other jberryhill Dec 2011 #67

Where do you get that? Remember Me Dec 2011 #71

Let's just say the topic of this thread has a long history jberryhill Dec 2011 #74

"We shall use patriarchal systems to stop patriarchy!" boppers Dec 2011 #122

don't forget beards MisterP Dec 2011 #64

I watched some of it last night. One of the couples were forcing Liquorice Dec 2011 #77

I would never give up my dogs! pitbullgirl1965 Dec 2011 #79

I don't know. I had to turn it when the guy started crying while looking at the ad Liquorice Dec 2011 #81

Something strange that I have noticed. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #80

I have the head cover and a pashmina scarf that I wear when its cold and fuck the world. roguevalley Dec 2011 #103

Oh hell no. a la izquierda Dec 2011 #135

Good for you! I'm less daring. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #179

I think it all depends on where one lives... a la izquierda Dec 2011 #181

I watched the episode where they went to the hijab store... YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #84

Maybe, but not on a hot summer day, I'd bet. n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #133

They use a breathable fabric. YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #155

You try covering your head and neck in a "breathable fabric" on a hot, sunny day whathehell Dec 2011 #159

Like these....? uppityperson Dec 2011 #161

No...Not like those. whathehell Dec 2011 #169

Well, they are from the desert. YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #187

Uhm, only the patriarchal, misogynistic tribes in the ME dress their women like this in the desert riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #194

THANK you!...n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #210

i have a radical idea, stop letting television tell you how to think pitohui Dec 2011 #86

I think any religious garb is oppressive to whomever wears it, however, if they choose to Cleita Dec 2011 #87

Did they ask the "All-Afghani Muslims"? WinkyDink Dec 2011 #88

Any policy that mostly targets minority women for punishment, should be suspect. ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #90

Any clothing designed by males to remove all individuality LadyHawkAZ Dec 2011 #91

they might if men are not punished for rape Tumbulu Dec 2011 #93

Amen, sister! CTyankee Dec 2011 #248

It's only voluntary for the man who makes the decision on behalf of his wife. She has no say. She's Monk06 Dec 2011 #94

Reminds me of the Confederate flag controversy... it's a symbol JCMach1 Dec 2011 #96

At any rate the women on that show are very beautiful. peace13 Dec 2011 #97

It is voluntary and any man who tries to force a wife, daughter or sister Warpy Dec 2011 #98

It sure didn't look voluntary on that show last night. One of the couples Liquorice Dec 2011 #108

As soon as those girls get into middle school and get lockers Warpy Dec 2011 #109

"voluntary" does not necessarily mean it is not oppressive Skittles Dec 2011 #110

I worked with a woman who wore a hijab. She wasn't oppressed at all... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #114

I worked with a battered woman who acted as though.. Little Star Dec 2011 #128

and you know that - when a women wears a scarf - it can only be because she is being oppressed? Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #146

Sorry to burst your rant..... Little Star Dec 2011 #152

nor does it mean that they are oppressed just because they don't conform to your model or my model Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #162

Nor does it mean that some of them are not oppressed... Little Star Dec 2011 #184

sometimes a scarf is just a scarf Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #143

just as it is dishonest to give societies a cultural pass that pushes women to dress in a manner Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #144

Like this....? uppityperson Dec 2011 #156

absolutely right, I am not giving us a pass either. Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #163

as long as you bare in mind that Western civilization has plenty of faults too Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #167

hijab, burqa, the pressure is the same... JCMach1 Dec 2011 #196

I'm sorry, but you might need to explain what pressure my colleague was under... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #197

I hold to my Confederate Flag analogy... yes, it is a symbol we all understand that JCMach1 Dec 2011 #204

Sometimes brain-washed people can't do voluntary... Little Star Dec 2011 #125

I find all religious dress offensive and irritating Bragi Dec 2011 #127

The Conservative Tent is so small � Cigar11 Dec 2011 #130

There are multiple reasons why a women might don the hijab... Orsino Dec 2011 #137

People who wear religious garb and jewelry are displaying their irrationality FarCenter Dec 2011 #140

The Predictable Atheist Insult whathehell Dec 2011 #151

People who dismiss all who aren't atheist as "irrational" are intolerant bigots. whathehell Dec 2011 #182

As someone who has lived in the Muslim world, it's "voluntary" all right--if the male head of MADem Dec 2011 #153

if you are talking of Sauid or the Gulf States..that is mostly likely true Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #168

Sadly, we see "honor" attacks and killings even in the western world. MADem Dec 2011 #212

For those who are seeking some balance in their film diet, and some views from INSIDE kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #176

I would also like to suggest a book Marrah_G Dec 2011 #211

Depends, in some cases it is voluntary in other cases not so much Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #183

I have a bridge to sell you. MH1 Dec 2011 #189

Of course it's oppressive. frogmarch Dec 2011 #190

Or it could be that they've simply adopted the dominant message. redqueen Dec 2011 #202

I see your point, and frogmarch Dec 2011 #203

I am ready for American Pigheaded Dec 2011 #215

Matisyahu would have been a great candidate for American Jew! MADem Dec 2011 #235

I think pants are oppressive to men. And why do women have to cover their breasts? McCamy Taylor Dec 2011 #221

Really?...Then maybe men should wear panty hose and dresses, if they prefer whathehell Dec 2011 #237

Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) areefamalik Mar 2012 #254