General Discussion

freshwest

(53,661 posts)

271. What am I missing here, ProSense? I wish I only had to pay $80/month.

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:18 AM

Sep 2012

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Out of an income less than $20K/year. Am I missing something? Is it time to panic or not?

Isn't a single payer program literally an individual mandate? If everyone is paying, singly, paying, isn't that a mandate on individuals?

I would like to see a program such as Europe has, where it seems to be 'free' to go to the doctor. But it isn't free. They pay income taxes and they don't scream for blood to water the tree of liberty because of it. They accept it as part of the social contract.

Some pay a lot, others don't, but they pay taxes, and the government finances healthcare from income taxes, not premiums. But there is no free healthcare. Insurance is not healthcare. it's a way of financing it, which Europe does with income taxes.

Are those complaining about the price of premiums for insurance ready to pay higher taxes? Our for-profit system sucks, and always has.

Conyers introduced HR 676, which is 'Medicare for all,' and he even terms it as 'single payer.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021439126#post5

We don't have enough Democratic power to get it done right now, but might if we don't give in to the Randians and let them make everyone go after each other. But nothing's free. Never.

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The individual mandate: I and others warned that this was coming, too. [View all] Zalatix Sep 2012 OP

Wow - what a well researched and lengthy article. DURHAM D Sep 2012 #1

What a copout response. Are you saying it's wrong or not? Zalatix Sep 2012 #2

I don't know if it is wrong or not, neither do you, and neither does Louise. DURHAM D Sep 2012 #8

Oh I know it's not wrong. I'd bet my ass on that. Zalatix Sep 2012 #9

THERE IS NO MANDATE, PERIOD. southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #57

THERE IS NO MOON. PERIOD. Zalatix Sep 2012 #80

if people can't afford it, they won't have to pay it. Voice for Peace Sep 2012 #105

Who's going to decide if we can or can't afford it? XemaSab Sep 2012 #126

There must be something in writing, whether in the ACA . . . freedom fighter jh Sep 2012 #152

me, I will decide. just give me all your bank information. Voice for Peace Sep 2012 #170

You going to put some money in there? XemaSab Sep 2012 #247

Darn and here I thought Newty Fruity was going to put families on the moon. Oh well. southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #348

There may be no Mandate on YOUR planet, bvar22 Sep 2012 #341

Well maybe it is or not but it should be mandated. Buy what you can afford and the government southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #347

No! I support a Democratic Party plan for HealthCare over your Republican approach. bvar22 Sep 2012 #358

I believe we are all having a conversation. southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #359

What % would drop coverage in the next five years without the ACA? cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #3

Well, we do know that McDonald's and a few others got WAIVERS Zalatix Sep 2012 #6

You forgot ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #15

McDonald's corporate has more than 50 employees. Just ONE of the mistakes in your argument. Zalatix Sep 2012 #20

I know the McDonald's corporation has more than 50 employees ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #98

WTF... I didn't say I don't like OBAMACARE. Stop pushing that lie. Zalatix Sep 2012 #101

I didn't say I don't like wine ... I just don't like the grapes ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #115

The Individual Mandate isn't the grape. It's the worm inside the grape. Zalatix Sep 2012 #122

The Individual Mandate Comes with the Territory On the Road Sep 2012 #208

Doesn't matter regardless if what is said downthread is true. Zalatix Sep 2012 #212

Howard Dean says they did it in Vermont. dkf Sep 2012 #238

So you're claiming we can't read? jeff47 Sep 2012 #276

"The individual mandate is one of the key features of the ACA." Uh, NO IT IS NOT. Zalatix Sep 2012 #282

Is it necessarily a bad thing to untie health insurance / employment? LiberalAndProud Sep 2012 #281

Employers started decreasing ins. for empees several years ago. They started charging employees Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #142

But, GIVING birth is cheaper? Fawke Em Sep 2012 #177

A forbes article in may had this to say Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #284

The ACA originally had provisions to try and pry people away from employer-based health insurance. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #4

There was talk of ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #22

Pry them away? It's employers who want to get free of their healthcare obligation. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #125

Well, employers who offer insurance want to get a better deal with insurance companies by bringing a BenzoDia Sep 2012 #130

i'm not clear on what you mean. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #145

Employers get a better deal on insurance plans if they offer a larger number of people. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #157

no, that part i understand. it's the way you're using "opt out" i don't understand. it's not HiPointDem Sep 2012 #160

Oh, I see what you're asking. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #175

ok, now i get it. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #184

Stop it ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #5

I'll stop when you can show how people earning just $20k a year won't get socked with an extra Zalatix Sep 2012 #7

Let em dump 'em ProSense Sep 2012 #10

I don't think humanity itself will live to see Single Payer in America. Zalatix Sep 2012 #12

You're conflating issues. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #13

Not at all. Zalatix Sep 2012 #16

Wait ProSense Sep 2012 #21

Public option will never happen. Not unless we split up the country. Zalatix Sep 2012 #29

"Not unless we split up the country." ProSense Sep 2012 #38

What, you couldn't read what was posted? Zalatix Sep 2012 #56

You have no point. ProSense Sep 2012 #64

You're living in denial. Medicare for All isn't happening in America. You're living a fantasy. Zalatix Sep 2012 #69

Again, you have no point. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #82

Again, you are living in denial. I have a perfect and error-free point, you just have no case here. Zalatix Sep 2012 #85

First of all you will only live for no more than 110 years RegieRocker Sep 2012 #219

Keep dreaming. Feel free to serve up crow if it EVER happens. Zalatix Sep 2012 #233

Most will die in the next few years RegieRocker Sep 2012 #269

There is another option here--single payer state by state eridani Sep 2012 #256

Finally, a voice of reason. Zalatix Sep 2012 #257

People that can't afford insurance will be provided federal subsidies. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #11

As I said, if you earn only $20K a year you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance. Zalatix Sep 2012 #14

It doesn't say that. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #19

Yes it does. And since you denied it, I'll end this debate with a screencap. Zalatix Sep 2012 #23

Where does it say ProSense Sep 2012 #34

You yourself admit there is a tax penalty for non-compliance. Zalatix Sep 2012 #39

Nice try. You said: "you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance" ProSense Sep 2012 #42

Uh, yes you will. And there's a PENALTY for non-compliance to serve as enforcement. Zalatix Sep 2012 #70

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #171

Oh but haven't you heard? The IRS can't enforce that penalty with levies or criminal proceedings. Zalatix Sep 2012 #213

It says in 2014 the penalty is $95 per adult or 1% of family income, whichever is greater dflprincess Sep 2012 #114

Holy shit that's worse than I thought. Zalatix Sep 2012 #141

It's $95 per adult ProSense Sep 2012 #148

A family of 4 would not get the penalty. They get Medicaid. Zalatix Sep 2012 #151

Huh? ProSense Sep 2012 #159

The question is about one who's unemployed and one who's earning $20K Zalatix Sep 2012 #161

Wow, that's some argument. ProSense Sep 2012 #203

To call that response 'tangential' is to be charitable. Zalatix Sep 2012 #215

You are exempted from the mandate if you cannot afford it. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #24

$20k a month ain't low enough. Zalatix Sep 2012 #27

The law says "no criminal action or liens can be imposed on people who don’t pay the fine" BenzoDia Sep 2012 #45

"You can also apply for a waiver asking not to pay an assessment if you don't qualify automatically" ProSense Sep 2012 #48

If you're earning above the poverty level you won't succeed in applying for a waiver. Give it up. Zalatix Sep 2012 #53

Nonsense. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #55

Well then shouldn't you? treestar Sep 2012 #26

See the chart above. $20k/month income = you get gouged $84 a month. Zalatix Sep 2012 #28

Nonsense. ProSense Sep 2012 #36

You're making up things I did not say. Zalatix Sep 2012 #43

Really? ProSense Sep 2012 #51

No, first you apologize for falsely accusing me of something I never said. Zalatix Sep 2012 #60

Apologize for disagreeing with you? ProSense Sep 2012 #63

What part of "You accused me of something I did not say" do you NOT understand? Zalatix Sep 2012 #73

I think your ProSense Sep 2012 #91

Again: What part of "You accused me of something I did not say" do you NOT understand? Zalatix Sep 2012 #94

I've made less than 20K as a self employed person treestar Sep 2012 #131

With that kind of skimpy coverage, you are guaranteed to go bankrupt if you have seious expenses eridani Sep 2012 #266

When they had no insurance at all, those bills were much higher treestar Sep 2012 #297

When they had no insurance, they could at least pay for routine care n/t eridani Oct 2012 #360

I make less than 20k a year, working full time darkangel218 Sep 2012 #352

Afford is subjective. As defined some will be able to afford it and others won't. TheKentuckian Sep 2012 #355

This message was self-deleted by its author JaneyVee Sep 2012 #46

The Republican WSJ article is WRONG. Since when do empers "care" about employee health coverage? Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #146

That person can take a penalty, instead. It won't be much. But 'm guessing the person will be GLAD Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #155

"They can get a job where an employer provides coverage"? and you call the WSJ Republican?? Zalatix Sep 2012 #166

Yes, the WSJ is Republican, and you posted the article. ProSense Sep 2012 #172

Republicans were the ones who first PUSHED THE MANDATE. Zalatix Sep 2012 #180

Everyone knows that. Common knowledge. Republicans also started the child credit, even for those Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #305

I think you need to enlightenment Sep 2012 #201

I think you need learn reality. We don't have single payer. We have an ins. system. Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #310

A little over 30 days to the election, and DUers are posting Wall Street Journal articles Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #17

Given that the WJS has Romney strategists CitizenPatriot Sep 2012 #31

The ACA isn't the problem, it's the Mandate. That's a Mitt Romney idea, a Heritage Foundation idea. Zalatix Sep 2012 #35

It's also a Swiss idea. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #52

It's a sucky idea. I wish we were more like England or Canada. Zalatix Sep 2012 #187

You've yet to explain how it works without a mandate. jeff47 Sep 2012 #278

Standard GOP ... WSJ says it ... some Democrate sees it, and dispairs. JoePhilly Sep 2012 #93

Yup, quietly cede the country to the Koches or revolt, which is their plan... freshwest Sep 2012 #345

Using the Oregon Health Plan Exchange calculator - bhikkhu Sep 2012 #18

People earning $20k a year can't afford another $84-85 a month expense on their budget Zalatix Sep 2012 #25

Are we assuming a current health expenditure level of $0? cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #30

Yes. A lot of people spend $0 on health care right now because their budgets are already overburdene Zalatix Sep 2012 #33

More nonsense ProSense Sep 2012 #58

More denials on your part. Zalatix Sep 2012 #66

You're laughing? ProSense Sep 2012 #74

You will be ordered to pay over $80 a month. Failure to comply means a monetary PENALTY. Zalatix Sep 2012 #78

"Failure to comply means a monetary PENALTY" of $8/mo assessed at tax time. ProSense Sep 2012 #84

You're out of your league with basic mathematics. Zalatix Sep 2012 #87

Psst: ProSense Sep 2012 #90

Once again you fail basic mathematics. Zalatix Sep 2012 #95

What's the ProSense Sep 2012 #100

Ah, I see what your problem is. Zalatix Sep 2012 #107

"The tax penalty will only be $8 a month in 2014" ProSense Sep 2012 #116

The only way I can be wrong is if the tax penalty is not $695 in 2016. Otherwise... you lose. Zalatix Sep 2012 #119

It's $95 in 2014, and you're wrong long before 2016. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #137

$695 or higher in 2016 is not wrong. Sorry, you're just off-base here. $695 in 2016! Zalatix Sep 2012 #143

Insurance is not care. At that level of payment for useless crap, the money-- eridani Sep 2012 #274

I raise a family of four on 28k a year bhikkhu Sep 2012 #71

That is impossible in America. Unless you are homeless. Zalatix Sep 2012 #75

Don't be callous and ridiculous! n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #77

Callous? You guys are the ones talking about slapping the working poor Zalatix Sep 2012 #79

No, that's your imagination. ProSense Sep 2012 #88

You still don't grasp reality here. Zalatix Sep 2012 #97

They don't have to, and ProSense Sep 2012 #109

You still don't comprehend. Zalatix Sep 2012 #123

How much is a person earning $20,000 paying now? n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #128

Nothing. Because they can't afford to. Zalatix Sep 2012 #133

So your argument is that ProSense Sep 2012 #135

"Should continue not having insurance"? More like, they have no choice but not to have it. Zalatix Sep 2012 #139

They ProSense Sep 2012 #153

It's not a choice. It's a mathematical certainty. Zalatix Sep 2012 #156

Would it ProSense Sep 2012 #167

You can now admit that you twisted what I said. Zalatix Sep 2012 #176

Comprehension: "As if" doesn't mean you said it. ProSense Sep 2012 #179

Backpedaling: "Uh, I didn't mean it that way" Zalatix Sep 2012 #181

No, single payer isn't free and baseless shit stirring isn't a valid argument. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #182

Nobody said or implied single payer was free, and bullshit lies aren't valid arguments either. Zalatix Sep 2012 #185

What will it cost a person earning $20,000 ProSense Sep 2012 #188

A LOT less than it costs now. Zalatix Sep 2012 #190

Medicare is minimum $99 per month. ProSense Sep 2012 #198

No, that's not what Medicare for All would cost. Not even close. Your facts are way off. Zalatix Sep 2012 #211

What am I missing here, ProSense? I wish I only had to pay $80/month. freshwest Sep 2012 #271

Good post. Thanks. ProSense Sep 2012 #275

And what if an employer had to pay only $80 a month bhikkhu Sep 2012 #320

I wonder if this is the same $80 figure that this OP is about? I don't understand what is happening. freshwest Sep 2012 #344

I'm sure it varies depending on where you live, but it is very possible where I live bhikkhu Sep 2012 #81

Wait a second. Zalatix Sep 2012 #149

My income of $28k supports 4, the other example is for a single adult living alone bhikkhu Sep 2012 #163

You're not getting Medicare for all, so just stop harping on that... TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #32

Prior to ACA, your 20k a year worker would have been on the hook for $3400. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #37

Not true. And who are you fooling with the "don't pay the penalty... nothing happens"? LOL!!! Zalatix Sep 2012 #47

Fooling? Only the illiterate, I guess. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #59

What the hell are you talking about? ProSense Sep 2012 #62

Wow, you didn't even read over what you posted. Zalatix Sep 2012 #83

Wrong. See post #65 BenzoDia Sep 2012 #89

And if your fantasyland rebuttal has any basis in reality, the consequences will be DIRE. Zalatix Sep 2012 #136

Nothing "fantasyland" about it. It's right there in the law and the Supreme Court ruling. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #140

Fantasyland or Dystopia, pick it. You're either wrong, or you'll wish you were. Zalatix Sep 2012 #144

How do they get a 70% discount if they still can't afford the $80 a month? hughee99 Sep 2012 #86

Companies were ALREADY planning on dropping employee plans. NashvilleLefty Sep 2012 #40

You will see Medicare for All here in America when America is dead and gone. Zalatix Sep 2012 #49

I disagree. But in the meantime we have the ACA. NashvilleLefty Sep 2012 #162

Since most working families ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #41

Please provide one single piece of legislation that has been enacted ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #44

It's a mixed bag...Many of us will have to suffer while others will see a relief... KoKo Sep 2012 #50

"it will be hell for those of us wanting to have access to the the health care we used to have" ProSense Sep 2012 #54

The Change Over from the Status Quo through 2014 when the rest kicks in KoKo Sep 2012 #356

They have been dropping coverage steadily for years. as we all know. robinlynne Sep 2012 #61

Hey everyone, OP is just fear whipping. In the Supreme Court's ruling... BenzoDia Sep 2012 #65

It's self-aggrandizing shit stirring. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #68

All it takes is a stroke of a pen... derby378 Sep 2012 #72

All it takes is a stroke of a pen to change any law in effect. BenzoDia Sep 2012 #76

Hey everyone, BenzoDia just explained how ludicrous the Individual Mandate is! Zalatix Sep 2012 #92

Very few people gamed the Massachusett's, The Netherlands' or Switzerland's mandate BenzoDia Sep 2012 #102

Low income people in MA go bankrupt or die eridani Sep 2012 #277

No, I think you got pwn'd. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #104

You think a lot of things, all of which have been wrong today. Zalatix Sep 2012 #108

The Act, however, bars the IRS from using several of its normal enforcement tools, such as criminal ProSense Sep 2012 #120

And as I said, if that fantasyland assessment is true, these consequences are unavoidable. Zalatix Sep 2012 #127

"Millions of people who are uninsured now won't pay for insurance in 2014." ProSense Sep 2012 #164

Why do you keep arguing that the penalty won't go up to $695 in 2016? Zalatix Sep 2012 #174

16 million more will qualify for Medicaid ProSense Sep 2012 #178

Why don't you believe that the tax penalty will go up to $695 in 2016? Zalatix Sep 2012 #186

What does it ProSense Sep 2012 #191

There will be those who cheat society, but I think most of us will contribute to a fair system. Hoyt Sep 2012 #293

Of course any move toward a public health insurance program will lead to..... Swede Atlanta Sep 2012 #67

Individual states can get waivers and do their own thing, like Single Payer, as Vermont is doing. nt patrice Sep 2012 #96

So... move out of places like Texas? Zalatix Sep 2012 #99

You could move here ProSense Sep 2012 #103

Sorry, but I don't want to be your neighbor. Zalatix Sep 2012 #112

Oregon's nice, and has its own very good ACA-compliant system in the works bhikkhu Sep 2012 #204

No, quit your bitching and take some responsibility for what happens in your state. Even a moderate patrice Sep 2012 #113

Quit your bitching at me! Unless you think I can INDOCTRINATE the whole state by myself. Zalatix Sep 2012 #117

Yep. Don't bother. Whatever you do is nothing anyway. There is no effect that you can have that is patrice Sep 2012 #121

Contrary to popular belief, one person cannot change the world. It takes the help of millions. Zalatix Sep 2012 #124

And you have no clue about how you might become more than one? No wonder you are patrice Sep 2012 #129

Okay so what have you done to change the world, and how successful have you been? Zalatix Sep 2012 #134

I have done more than I can tell, some small things, some not so small things, ever since patrice Sep 2012 #158

And with all that effort, have you been able to get Medicare for All passed? Zalatix Sep 2012 #183

Nevermind. You are either too ignorant or too incapable of understanding. Carry on with your whine. patrice Sep 2012 #196

You're just too confused and irrational to do anything but bitch aimlessly at me. Zalatix Sep 2012 #220

If you think it's only about success as you define it, you are an authoritarian, apparently without patrice Sep 2012 #169

You throw around some big words without knowing their meaning. Zalatix Sep 2012 #193

That's the problem with ideologically driven results jberryhill Sep 2012 #209

And for those who choose not to pay for insurance or pay the tax penalty, there is no step forward. Zalatix Sep 2012 #216

Bullshit jberryhill Sep 2012 #287

Then by all means wake me up when Medicare for All happens. LOL. Zalatix Sep 2012 #298

Clinton had a good line on Jon Stewart's program jberryhill Sep 2012 #210

Yes. jeff47 Sep 2012 #279

You way over estimate your own perspicacity not only in thinking no one else expected that effect patrice Sep 2012 #106

Wow. I said "I and others". How did that come out to me thinking no one else saw this? Zalatix Sep 2012 #111

I am merely pointing out that to those, whom you may think it is news, it isn't. nt patrice Sep 2012 #118

AAAAHHHH! The Individual Mandate gonna git us!!! porphyrian Sep 2012 #110

Speaking of fail, from your own cite: Zalatix Sep 2012 #132

OH NO! President Obama changed his mind about something since he became... porphyrian Sep 2012 #296

That has nothing to do with the mandate. It has to do with perceived increase costs for the ACA... Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #138

The reality is employers have been dropping health insurance as a benefit for years Samantha Sep 2012 #147

Exactly... Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #154

It's fascinating ProSense Sep 2012 #150

Many employers, at least small business owners, were going to end ecstatic Sep 2012 #165

And the costs are the result of a FOR PROFIT insurance system. Control the profit = begin to patrice Sep 2012 #173

Fear mongering. Loudestlib Sep 2012 #168

You won't be saying that when the working poor get socked hard in 2014. Zalatix Sep 2012 #189

"Socked hard" because they still can't afford insurance? ProSense Sep 2012 #194

Oh yeah, you still believe they'll only have to pay a $8/month tax penalty for non-compliance Zalatix Sep 2012 #199

Let's set aside the fact that you don't seem to know the ACA. Loudestlib Sep 2012 #235

Speaking of not knowing the ACA, you just called the ACA a REPUBLICAN PLAN!!! Zalatix Sep 2012 #251

it's my understanding that employers that dont offer health insurance will be required to pay a fine notadmblnd Sep 2012 #192

They'll save money by paying the tax penalty instead of paying for health care benefits Zalatix Sep 2012 #195

Bullshit. You're just guessing. Period. Lex Sep 2012 #202

And fooling a lot of people. ProSense Sep 2012 #205

You fail basic math. Period. I'm not guessing, I am absolutely CERTAIN. Zalatix Sep 2012 #206

Stop ProSense Sep 2012 #207

No guesswork here, you still don't read your own cites. Zalatix Sep 2012 #217

You cite nothing. Lex Sep 2012 #222

Why should I, when ProSense's own cites contradict him? Zalatix Sep 2012 #224

Leave me out of the clownish argument. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #226

You leave this clownish argument and it will stop being clownish. Zalatix Sep 2012 #228

This message was self-deleted by its author Lex Sep 2012 #230

Evidently, you're in denial and ProSense Sep 2012 #225

No denial here, your facts are flat out wrong and you're trying to force feed me nonsense Zalatix Sep 2012 #227

Here: ProSense Sep 2012 #231

How Small Business Owners Get Health Insurance: they PAY for it, like everyone else. Zalatix Sep 2012 #234

Your comments are now hilarious ProSense Sep 2012 #239

Your comments are now silly hour. Zalatix Sep 2012 #242

Wrong. Sorry. You are guessing at this. AGAIN. Lex Sep 2012 #221

No, the problem is that you don't know what you're talking about. Zalatix Sep 2012 #223

that's right, there will be no enforcement of the tax penalty notadmblnd Sep 2012 #237

I said, someone upthread CLAIMED there will be no enforcement. That is, of course, wrong. Zalatix Sep 2012 #244

No, I never mentioned it. notadmblnd Sep 2012 #346

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #197

Absurd! n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #200

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #218

That has nothing to do with the ACA. ProSense Sep 2012 #232

It certainly has something to do with the individual mandate. Zalatix Sep 2012 #248

Nothing, absolutely nothing. n/t ProSense Sep 2012 #250

Denial isn't a river in Egypt, ya know. Zalatix Sep 2012 #252

You're quoting the ProSense Sep 2012 #254

Are you okay? Zalatix Sep 2012 #255

LOL! It's irrelevant to the IRS' actions as they relate to ACA. ProSense Sep 2012 #259

Yeah, you're tired. Zalatix Sep 2012 #261

No, I think you're spinning. ProSense Sep 2012 #263

There's no spin here, you just don't understand human nature. Zalatix Sep 2012 #301

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #292

Claiming that the IRS is powerless to collect money.... bvar22 Oct 2012 #370

I'm not sure which is more absurd - if they're wrong, or if they're right. Zalatix Sep 2012 #236

Well THAT'S interesting. Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #290

All this woe-is-me talk about the individual mandate. Let's take a look at the #1 rated healthcare 4lbs Sep 2012 #214

Math, math, math! The population of France is 65 million. America? 300 million. Zalatix Sep 2012 #240

You need to stop ProSense Sep 2012 #243

So which part are you confused about here? Zalatix Sep 2012 #246

Sure, ProSense Sep 2012 #249

Do you know what I said when I said "The tax on the top earners is also a damned good idea"? Zalatix Sep 2012 #253

And it's still apple to apples. ProSense Sep 2012 #258

It'll cost less than in France, and less than $84 a month. Zalatix Sep 2012 #262

Will it be less than the 2014 penalty of $8 ProSense Sep 2012 #268

Dear God, you don't even do math right. Zalatix Sep 2012 #270

No it doesn't. ProSense Sep 2012 #272

Yeah, your math is not strong here, ProSense. Zalatix Sep 2012 #300

This was fun ProSense Sep 2012 #304

People will game the system to death. Enjoy! Zalatix Sep 2012 #317

I think whatever "savings" there are from "large numbers" occurs well before 65 million insured. Hoyt Sep 2012 #295

The OP won't stop his fearmongering no matter what. DevonRex Sep 2012 #264

France also subsidizes low income people, and the government DICTATES health care prices eridani Sep 2012 #280

+1 leftstreet Sep 2012 #331

True. I support all that. But the OP's main whine is about the individual mandate. 4lbs Sep 2012 #336

No, the OP was about a mandate to enrich private insurance companies eridani Oct 2012 #361

Employers have steadily been dropping healthcare ANYWAY, because costs have been rising. pnwmom Sep 2012 #229

If a LOT of employers stop providing plans, I can't help but think the gateley Sep 2012 #241

Healthcare... deathrind Sep 2012 #245

Employers dropping coverage is what will GET us true universal health care SoCalDem Sep 2012 #260

Good sakibsust Sep 2012 #265

You may not give a shit if this hurts Obama's election chances DevonRex Sep 2012 #267

Seriously? I need a list of banned sites that I should not cite. Zalatix Sep 2012 #273

I disagree with the OP but cali Sep 2012 #289

DURec KG Sep 2012 #283

"People were warned this was coming."...Ok, confess...you wear skinny jeans. renie408 Sep 2012 #285

Factless? Emo? Oh I see, you lack for a coherent argument so instead you have to throw a tantrum. Zalatix Sep 2012 #286

LOL...you are the only person throwing a tantrum. renie408 Sep 2012 #288

There you go, throwing another damned hissyfit. Zalatix Sep 2012 #299

I think you forgot "nahney nahney boo boo" renie408 Sep 2012 #343

I sure did. And then you went and did it instead! Zalatix Sep 2012 #351

Employers have used any and no excuse to cut pay and benefits quaker bill Sep 2012 #291

The ONLY reason why I and many of my friends voted for Obama was because he was against the coldwaterintheface Sep 2012 #294

I wouldn't say that's cause to be less excited to vote this year. Zalatix Sep 2012 #302

"Obama was railroaded into the Individual Mandate." ProSense Sep 2012 #306

You do remember that Obama OPPOSED the Individual Mandate during his campaign, right? Zalatix Sep 2012 #308

After your comments ProSense Sep 2012 #311

"Guessing". You do not understand what that word actually means. Zalatix Sep 2012 #313

Wow, you're linking to a wingnut site? Really? ProSense Sep 2012 #323

Bah, I thought it said CBS news. The rest of your argument was refuted in #316. Zalatix Sep 2012 #327

And your BS was smacked down in #325. ProSense Sep 2012 #328

You seem to like to confuse spin doctoring with "smacking down". Zalatix Sep 2012 #335

Railroaded my Ass, he did not even fight coldwaterintheface Sep 2012 #349

Another Thank God It Passed! Safetykitten Sep 2012 #303

I'll let this guy explain why The Mandate is a BAD idea for America. bvar22 Sep 2012 #307

Why would anyone argue? Here's what he said ProSense Sep 2012 #312

Wow, you woke up as confused as you were last night. Zalatix Sep 2012 #316

Bullshit! ProSense Sep 2012 #325

Candidate Obama was very clear that he opposed The Mandate during Campaign 2008. bvar22 Sep 2012 #319

He might have sank Hillary over just that issue. Zalatix Sep 2012 #321

Here's the part ProSense Sep 2012 #326

I KNOW what he said, and how he said it. bvar22 Sep 2012 #338

That's absolutely correct. He ridiculed her for supporting the Mandate. And rightly. nt Poll_Blind Sep 2012 #333

Right wing bullshit from the wsj and a jury voted 5-1 keep it. Warren Stupidity Sep 2012 #309

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #322

He has won on one point. I will look for sources in the future that are not the WSJ. Zalatix Sep 2012 #342

Sources don't matter if they are accurate. The content and character of your posts is what matters. rDigital Oct 2012 #372

Nobody cares about your "warnings". MjolnirTime Sep 2012 #314

Big whoop, you don't HAVE TO CARE!!! The consequences will happen regardless. Zalatix Sep 2012 #318

Yes, ProSense Sep 2012 #330

Denial is sometimes a comforting thing. I won't deny you that comfort. Zalatix Sep 2012 #334

Here ProSense Sep 2012 #337

That post, and your statement here about Medicaid is obsolete. bvar22 Sep 2012 #339

Actually, ProSense Sep 2012 #353

You're declaring victory for something that hasn't happened. bvar22 Oct 2012 #362

His imagination is stronger than your reality. Zalatix Oct 2012 #363

My (her) knowledge of the facts is stronger than your guessing. ProSense Oct 2012 #365

There you go again, declaring victory after blowing off all your toes! Zalatix Oct 2012 #368

Wrong ProSense Oct 2012 #364

Do you know what the word "MANDATE" means? bvar22 Oct 2012 #366

Do you know ProSense Oct 2012 #367

Nobody needs the MSM to explain THIS: bvar22 Oct 2012 #369

Not this shit again. Iggo Sep 2012 #315

Here is the problem, stated simply. Savannahmann Sep 2012 #324

Yup. The wolf will hunt an unprotected lamb, it's as simple as that. Zalatix Sep 2012 #329

Left wing concern post from right-wing Murdoch paper. gulliver Sep 2012 #332

Why are you posting WSJ propaganda? Odin2005 Sep 2012 #340

I and others warned that this was coming, too: another panic post. randome Sep 2012 #350

This will just make universal health care more probable. Lint Head Sep 2012 #354

It's no use. 2ndAmForComputers Sep 2012 #357

stop the presses! arely staircase Oct 2012 #371

I for one look forward to your gloating thread Capt. Obvious Oct 2012 #373