General Discussion

treestar

(82,383 posts)

80. I've argued with some right wingers in the past on the term

Sat Nov 28, 2020, 12:10 PM

Nov 2020

Government owning the means of production - they just insist that any regulation or government control is the equivalent of the government owning the factories, etc.

Insurance companies are a sort of socialism within capitalism. You pay into a fund in case you need more money than you can afford over a mishap. If you never get any sort of payout, you don't mind, because you didn't suffer the mishap. The ACA only helps people pay for insurance. Yet they managed to make it into "government" controlling healthcare.

Our real problem is not messaging. It is the people we are talking too being too willing to believe anything on emotional grounds. It's just the plain stupidity. We have been coddling that for so long that nobody even thinks it is possible to fight anymore. We have facts, we have logical arguments, but those don't work, emotional manipulation works better.

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This may start a DU dispute," but [View all] Cyrano Nov 2020 OP

K&R MaryMagdaline Nov 2020 #1

I Agree. "Defund the Police" Was a Gift to the GOP. Biden Did a Good Job Separating Himself Indykatie Nov 2020 #2

Yup, James Clyburn compared it to the "Burn, baby burn" chant of the 60s. cwydro Nov 2020 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Nov 2020 #26

Hasn't 30 years of Frank Luntz taught us anything? IT'S THE FREAKING MESSAGING! Word Play Matters. TheBlackAdder Nov 2020 #50

Don't suppose anybody was paying attention Rural_Progressive Nov 2020 #126

One of the biggest flaws in the Enlightenment misanthrope Nov 2020 #181

If humans are mostly emotionally driven that explains why GOP messaging is more effective. TheBlackAdder Nov 2020 #191

That's why Joe's campaign connected. summer_in_TX Nov 2020 #238

Humans are "not rational animals but animal capax rationis" per Dr. Swift RVN VET71 Nov 2020 #221

When will Democrats learn?! Catch2.2 Nov 2020 #219

Too late, I'm afraid. Crunchy Frog Nov 2020 #230

Exactly! I've been asking for years and years why Dems don't Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2020 #268

Agree 1000% Catch2.2 Dec 2020 #288

Major Dem Problem evilhime Nov 2020 #115

confirmation bias hurts DU and liberals kiri Nov 2020 #227

Mischaracterized descriptive phrases don't help. jaxexpat Nov 2020 #122

Why 'Defund The Police' Attacks Were So Potent Against Democrats Gothmog Nov 2020 #240

Who came up with that "defund the police" slogan, Putin? Trueblue Texan Nov 2020 #265

First nits (of many to be sure...) Moostache Nov 2020 #3

Huh? DURHAM D Nov 2020 #15

Democrats like Lieberman and Manchin...they are a part of the problem getting anything done. Moostache Nov 2020 #28

I remain convinced that Lieberman on the 2000 ticket intheflow Nov 2020 #98

Where has Manchin said he won't support Biden's agenda? brooklynite Nov 2020 #108

Wrong BGBD Nov 2020 #111

It doesn't matter what defund the police means. tymorial Nov 2020 #103

It's especially bad to judge people intellectually inferior for assuming that "defund" means Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2020 #290

" was tied to the images of idiots looting and running down the streets with armfuls of stolen good The Mouth Nov 2020 #128

You are wrong Gothmog Nov 2020 #242

That guy (in the linked pic) has a sign talking about COMMUNISM...socialism is NOT the same thing. Moostache Nov 2020 #271

Again you are wrong Gothmog Nov 2020 #272

Have a nice day Moostache Nov 2020 #274

Here is an attack ad that is being used in Georgia Gothmog Dec 2020 #287

Did you miss the "No Socialista" above the "No Communista"? George II Nov 2020 #278

I think too many voters only voted for President. pwb Nov 2020 #4

That's been a very long term phenomenon Amishman Nov 2020 #89

They voted down ballot too LeftInTX Nov 2020 #134

So they were votes against tRump, not against Rs. KPN Nov 2020 #263

Yes LeftInTX Nov 2020 #269

Elaborating on why I somewhat disagreed: LeftInTX Nov 2020 #149

"reform the police" would have been a better phrase. Nt USALiberal Nov 2020 #5

The problem is that the phrase came from protests Bettie Nov 2020 #16

Exactly!!! nt pazzyanne Nov 2020 #59

Too many Democrats didn't disavow the stupid phrase, The Mouth Nov 2020 #131

Unfortunately disavowing the phrase just spreads it DBoon Nov 2020 #173

Many things came from protests that reflected badly on Dems, all of it done by provocateurs, i.e. Doremus Nov 2020 #162

Yep. But it isn't us at the bottom of the political pyramid who get to control the message Bettie Nov 2020 #165

Spot on analysis. Doremus Nov 2020 #174

If we just shot all rioters and looters The Mouth Nov 2020 #186

Not all the looting or rioting was repukes. 58Sunliner Nov 2020 #245

Reform or restructure would have worked much better imo. Heartstrings Nov 2020 #62

I've been calling them Fascists for a long time vlyons Nov 2020 #7

Solid post! North Shore Chicago Nov 2020 #8

Who's using the world 'socialism', save for the few people calling themselves Democratic Socialists? marmar Nov 2020 #9

Republicans use it to describe all Democrats. nt DURHAM D Nov 2020 #13

Exactly. Orrex Nov 2020 #38

But they're going to use it regardless. marmar Nov 2020 #43

And? Orrex Nov 2020 #100

What do we do then? Bettie Nov 2020 #135

I might ask you the same question Orrex Nov 2020 #146

I have no idea Bettie Nov 2020 #147

Then we are in complete agreement Orrex Nov 2020 #158

I generally believe Bettie Nov 2020 #168

some Republicans have convinced themselves TheFarseer Nov 2020 #231

Trump and Putin are buddies, and... AmyStrange Nov 2020 #249

Miami-Dade County shifted over 20 points toward Trump from 2016 Gothmog Nov 2020 #243

Oh, I definitely want to defund the police. Through abolition. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2020 #10

I agree yourmovemonkey Nov 2020 #88

What will you do when someone breaks into your house while you're in it? cwydro Nov 2020 #151

When that exact thing was happening... tonedevil Nov 2020 #157

Well, I had the opposite happen to me while in college. cwydro Nov 2020 #159

Our different experiences... tonedevil Nov 2020 #194

I hope this doesn't sound creepy; I know we've talked about this earlier this year. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2020 #170

Not creepy. cwydro Nov 2020 #171

I appreciate your perspective so much and I know we agree more than we disagree. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2020 #187

R&K MerryBlooms Nov 2020 #11

I dispute that this will start a dispute! Shermann Nov 2020 #12

But they are far too easy to weaponize. wnylib Nov 2020 #67

OMG, just stop Ferrets are Cool Nov 2020 #14

Stop Being Nice Is How DanieRains Nov 2020 #118

They just pretend that we are all in agreement TheFarseer Nov 2020 #234

"Socialism was only tried once on this planet." milestogo Nov 2020 #17

They have capitalism and a strong safety net treestar Nov 2020 #65

I thought we were screwed when I saw XanaDUer2 Nov 2020 #18

I live in a very red district randr Nov 2020 #19

I thought we were screwed when I saw XanaDUer2 Nov 2020 #20

I agree but how? Republicans are great at branding doc03 Nov 2020 #21

I've thought about this a lot. albacore Nov 2020 #37

Personally I blame in on religion - evangelicals and capitalism. Both are a religion for a walkingman Nov 2020 #22

I hope President Biden will order the IRS to vigorously enforce the Johnson Amendment. Mariana Nov 2020 #130

Totally agree, Mariana. Strangely enough when the Amendment was included in the Internal Revenue walkingman Nov 2020 #148

Agree. WE, i.e., Democrats, are NOT the ones pushing those terms. Hortensis Nov 2020 #23

Bernie Sanders won nearly 70 percent of votes in his last Senate election. ...... marmar Nov 2020 #31

The point is, that 70% INCLUDES a lot of conservatives Hortensis Nov 2020 #42

That's a single state treestar Nov 2020 #68

The post I was responding to was addressing VT-specific concerns. marmar Nov 2020 #69

Oh OK treestar Nov 2020 #79

You can answer that question yourself... ahoysrcsm Nov 2020 #202

I'll dispute it. This country is 47-47% LakeArenal Nov 2020 #24

Thirty percent did not vote this year. And 2016 was only 58%. 58Sunliner Nov 2020 #247

Agreed. mdelaguna Nov 2020 #256

They called JFK a communist, too. RandiFan1290 Nov 2020 #25

You're correct. Buckeyeblue Nov 2020 #27

Your first paragraph is totally correct treestar Nov 2020 #74

Lots of middle class whites AREN'T racist The Mouth Nov 2020 #139

That's right. Buckeyeblue Nov 2020 #150

The message of a lot of people here on DU to the middle class seems to be that they ARE racist The Mouth Nov 2020 #276

No offense, but the definition of racism is and should be..... marmar Nov 2020 #250

Keep thinking that The Mouth Nov 2020 #275

Yes! TheFarseer Nov 2020 #236

A thread title always guaranteed to lead to excellent content greenjar_01 Nov 2020 #29

trump lost RandiFan1290 Nov 2020 #32

The Republicans still hold most of the levers of Cyrano Nov 2020 #70

Democrats need to learn that it is not "blind" following treestar Nov 2020 #76

Funny how they scream Bear Creek Nov 2020 #91

An accusation from a narcissist is a confession The Mouth Nov 2020 #185

democrats have SUCKED with messaging AND give GOP AMPLE ammo to blow us out of the water. beachbumbob Nov 2020 #30

If people are so gullible treestar Nov 2020 #77

gullible? Has less to do with it than the hate that seeths within these people. beachbumbob Nov 2020 #81

then how do they come upon that hate? treestar Nov 2020 #83

We are not a minority party. Republicans are the minority. servermsh Nov 2020 #33

We need a think tank to find people who can define and market what Democrats believe in. Baitball Blogger Nov 2020 #34

I agree that socialism and defunding police Progressive dog Nov 2020 #35

Stupid messaging. It was a huge gift to the GOP in Texas: dalton99a Nov 2020 #36

It won't matter what we say MuseRider Nov 2020 #39

Thank you. Repugs have been using the socialist tag since Reagan. marmar Nov 2020 #48

I shudder at that name. MuseRider Nov 2020 #56

I've argued with some right wingers in the past on the term treestar Nov 2020 #80

Well said. MuseRider Nov 2020 #101

After a summer of protest, Americans voted for policing and criminal justice reform SaintLouisBlues Nov 2020 #40

More from this article: SaintLouisBlues Nov 2020 #44

I would add the rioting and especially the looting that was broadcast on a nightly jalan48 Nov 2020 #41

Yup, did nothing to help us. cwydro Nov 2020 #156

Some excellent points. kentuck Nov 2020 #45

The language of Branding Roy Rolling Nov 2020 #46

This... The branding cost us 3-6 house seats in TX JCMach1 Nov 2020 #72

☝️☝️☝️ moondust Nov 2020 #178

Just read your first paragraph and stopped, it is incorrect. George II Nov 2020 #47

Republicans hold many state legislatures which means that Cyrano Nov 2020 #154

Just getting back to this. Here are the party controls in the 49 states (Nebraska is non-partisan): George II Nov 2020 #262

20 is more than 10, right? And 41 is more than 29? So Democrats are doing better NOW than in 2016? NurseJackie Nov 2020 #266

Other than for reasons of vanity or ego, I don't understand why so many cling to the word socialism. NurseJackie Nov 2020 #49

Democrat Bear Creek Nov 2020 #51

And those SOBs kneeling during a football game like Colin Kaepernick who wants to see that ? lunasun Nov 2020 #52

Gerrymandering still matters 986racer Nov 2020 #53

+1 we blame ourselves so much mdelaguna Nov 2020 #257

I don't think that's the story (or the whole story) frazzled Nov 2020 #54

Indeed. Trump was rejected not the GOP Roc2020 Nov 2020 #82

Republicans have it easy. The innocent fools on our side are stars on the Republican Sales team. gulliver Nov 2020 #55

If you are explaining, you are losing ... reACTIONary Nov 2020 #57

I agree Ohioboy Nov 2020 #58

I disagree. We are not a minority party. read on... NRaleighLiberal Nov 2020 #60

Even if that is what "defund the police" means treestar Nov 2020 #61

My thoughts exactly! Riverman100 Nov 2020 #63

Demilitarize the police would have been better. PaulRevere08 Nov 2020 #64

I think that is a loser as well. KentuckyWoman Nov 2020 #142

I don't disagree but a fundamental issue is the training that police get has morphed into PaulRevere08 Dec 2020 #286

Even the people shouting "defund the police" don't agree about what it means Recursion Nov 2020 #66

Big assumption next Rep nominee will have same rural appeal JCMach1 Nov 2020 #71

Your evidence? Voltaire2 Nov 2020 #73

Crickets of course Dem4Life1102 Nov 2020 #188

We've had the sensible pragmatic moderate centrist messaging for 40 years now Sympthsical Nov 2020 #75

Incrementalism can be just as stupid as knee-jerk "hit the TV with a stick" solutions gulliver Nov 2020 #87

Well said DENVERPOPS Nov 2020 #78

How many down ballot democrats ran on socialism and Dem4Life1102 Nov 2020 #84

Agreeing about "Defund" and "socialism"... RobertDevereaux Nov 2020 #85

To correct two mis-statement: we still hold the house. And the Senate is in the air untill Jan 6. marble falls Nov 2020 #86

My hopes and ideals are with you Cyrano Nov 2020 #93

Defund The Police was definitely an issue tymorial Nov 2020 #90

Except that it doesn't matter a damned bit what we say or do. Arthur_Frain Nov 2020 #92

Frank Luntz has worked on messaging for the Repubs for years. The power of words and the affect Pisces Nov 2020 #94

can be summed up in four words: Gerrymandering, voter suppression & Fox yaesu Nov 2020 #95

People took the phrase "defund the police" literally. It is and was a nuanced phrase that iluvtennis Nov 2020 #96

Democratic policies are supported by a majority of Americans, and Dems should govern that way Fiendish Thingy Nov 2020 #97

This. 1000000% Tommymac Nov 2020 #144

We are a party that has been gerrymandered... Sancho Nov 2020 #99

Alternative post title: intheflow Nov 2020 #102

"Socialism" is a word used by R's to falsely label D's Martin Eden Nov 2020 #104

It is not used falsely AmericanCanuck Nov 2020 #112

Yes, it IS used falsely Martin Eden Nov 2020 #132

I know they are a fringe minority but no one outside of devout Democrats know it AmericanCanuck Nov 2020 #164

Specifically, when D's in Congress openly declare they are Socialist? Martin Eden Nov 2020 #167

Example please. scipan Nov 2020 #169

Totally disagree, could not possibly disagree more..... Jon King Nov 2020 #105

Americans by and large are centrists. AmericanCanuck Nov 2020 #114

Again polling would've picked up in this early, there's no excuse for down ballot misses like we.had uponit7771 Nov 2020 #225

Polling for down-ballot races is sketchy AmericanCanuck Nov 2020 #232

Iftthe greater mass of americans were actually centrists quakerboy Dec 2020 #284

The corollary is not always true AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #285

+1, No slogans or terms excuses the horrid polling either. uponit7771 Nov 2020 #224

Actually, AOC used the term. ehrnst Nov 2020 #270

No. The Democratic Party is not a minority party. MineralMan Nov 2020 #106

They control many state legislatures which Cyrano Nov 2020 #160

I agree and will add two more words "Open Borders" DesertRat Nov 2020 #107

It's not about backing down Midnightwalk Nov 2020 #109

It's salesmanship - and I agree with you 100%. KentuckyWoman Nov 2020 #110

They're MUCH more focused and disciplined on MESSAGING. calimary Nov 2020 #113

Perhaps a small change? AncientOfDays Nov 2020 #116

It's hard to convince some Americans, when they believe in Free-dumb... albacore Nov 2020 #117

this is the answer Normanart Nov 2020 #226

It's much bigger than that flibbitygiblets Nov 2020 #119

I just love a good dispute. Jillgirl Nov 2020 #120

Democratic messaging problem in a nutshell Alpeduez21 Nov 2020 #121

Right, words have meaning, and repugs specialize in distorting and lying, elleng Nov 2020 #123

Makes little difference what Democrats do tiredtoo Nov 2020 #124

FIRST we have to win The Mouth Nov 2020 #141

That phrase couldn't be dumber if the Republicans themselves coined it The Mouth Nov 2020 #125

If you can figure out how to control which slogans protesters use Mariana Nov 2020 #127

I use ... aggiesal Nov 2020 #129

Correct and once again the squad isn't helpful... Historic NY Nov 2020 #133

Yet it grew. Gore1FL Nov 2020 #138

They have been smearing us with "Socialism" for years. Gore1FL Nov 2020 #136

this llashram Nov 2020 #137

"Defund the police" is a Republican smear, not a Democratic platform position. hay rick Nov 2020 #140

Well they made Democrats own it. Historic NY Nov 2020 #143

Disagree. The mass media drives the narrative. Tommymac Nov 2020 #145

Very true Dem4Life1102 Nov 2020 #189

They got many politicians to say it like AOC which carried the narrative Pisces Dec 2020 #283

And more flipping the framing of these issues Blue Owl Nov 2020 #152

"War on women" and "patriarchy" are other losers. (n/t) SMC22307 Nov 2020 #153

'Defund the Police' is not your slogan to change. aidbo Nov 2020 #155

Good point. Moreover, it's not "the Democrats'" to change. David__77 Nov 2020 #161

"Defund the police" was such a DOH! moment w serious repercussions. Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #163

So, what? Tell protestors Bettie Nov 2020 #166

I find it interesting no one has a problem with the "I can't breathe" slogan JonLP24 Nov 2020 #175

Right? Actually, the thing in this stupid little town I live in Bettie Nov 2020 #193

I agree that they will weapinize anythimg we say. But, hell. We don't need to help them Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #205

Word it differently!! This isn't about alienating trump supporters!! Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #204

"Moderates" and "Independents" who decide a wording problem Bettie Nov 2020 #222

You can't stop protesters from using whatever slogan they want. Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #228

Optics... Bettie Nov 2020 #244

Look. I am a big supporter in bringing a gun to a fight. But this was just stupid. Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #252

Fine. You win Bettie Nov 2020 #267

I NEVER said any of those things. Never even implied it. But YOU sure think that. Vivienne235729 Nov 2020 #277

Actually, I live in a right wing area Bettie Nov 2020 #279

No. You live w a bunch of assholes like I do. We STILL have them doing their stupid ass Vivienne235729 Dec 2020 #280

P.s. I think we have a lot of education to do. There is so much misinformation on BLM Vivienne235729 Dec 2020 #281

If we had a Democracy Democrats would have won in a landslide JonLP24 Nov 2020 #172

I think part of the problem is also just general softness. BannonsLiver Nov 2020 #176

I lulz'd KG Nov 2020 #177

I have begged and begged for Dems to hire Lakoff for message strategy. Grasswire2 Nov 2020 #179

In MI, Dems made gains at the state level Kaleva Nov 2020 #180

It's not really accurate to say we lost most of our downballots BGBD Nov 2020 #182

I don't think it is our messaging in rural areas JonLP24 Nov 2020 #184

In Mi, Trump got more votes in the urban counties then in the rural ones Kaleva Nov 2020 #190

Our rural BGBD Nov 2020 #196

I was referring to the misinformation JonLP24 Nov 2020 #198

jfc bigtree Nov 2020 #183

It's not the message. It's the media CONTROL. coti Nov 2020 #192

Defund the police 986racer Nov 2020 #195

Trump was clearly playing divide and conquer politics with the protests JonLP24 Nov 2020 #197

Agreed that the truth is out there 986racer Nov 2020 #199

And marketing professional will tell you how imporatant the message is Poiuyt Nov 2020 #200

We should be tying the term Facist and Republican together 24/7....because they really are MaeScott Nov 2020 #201

Spin it any way you like.... ahoysrcsm Nov 2020 #203

I don't think Biden's suggestion to "Shoot them in the leg" JonLP24 Nov 2020 #206

All that text... ahoysrcsm Nov 2020 #208

I agree with the defunding JonLP24 Nov 2020 #209

California is not Florida. ahoysrcsm Nov 2020 #210

Which is why Democrats should stop treating it as if it is a national issue JonLP24 Nov 2020 #212

I agree that we lost the messaging war there. Very thankful that Biden's a familiar enough highplainsdem Nov 2020 #207

I think you're right. Joinfortmill Nov 2020 #211

Government jobs The Wizard Nov 2020 #213

Kind of a silly post reggaehead Nov 2020 #214

Many Americans have poor or no understanding of the word, socialism. BigDemVoter Nov 2020 #215

This message was self-deleted by its author geralmar Nov 2020 #216

Agree 1000% Catch2.2 Nov 2020 #217

I agree with much of what you said, Mr.Bill Nov 2020 #218

Republicans turned out for Joe and voted Republican down-ballot bucolic_frolic Nov 2020 #220

Your feelings aren't proof and not established enough to trust uponit7771 Nov 2020 #223

My take TheFarseer Nov 2020 #229

Nearly half of this country wants Facist Authoritarianism Yavin4 Nov 2020 #233

Venezuela and Norway are about equally socialist. paulkienitz Nov 2020 #235

"Defund the Police" is the means to separate from the crooked Unions that protect bad cops. TigressDem Nov 2020 #237

You're exactly right. BobTheSubgenius Nov 2020 #239

Democrats Grapple with Downballot Losses Gothmog Nov 2020 #241

All very negative , I think seta1950 Nov 2020 #246

And 30% did not vote in this election. 58Sunliner Nov 2020 #248

Cyrano, I agree about "DEFUND THE POLICE" phrase. I ALWAYS felt that the purpose would be better The_REAL_Ecumenist Nov 2020 #251

We are NOT a minority party. We are victims of dirty tricks, voter suppression, gerrymandering. USA Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2020 #253

Totally agree Soxfan58 Nov 2020 #254

Horse shit! BasicallyComplicated Nov 2020 #255

+1 jimlup Nov 2020 #260

Without reading further I dismiss the post because jimlup Nov 2020 #258

Agree 1000% TheCowsCameHome Nov 2020 #259

You are correct. Analysis of the election results points to R B Garr Nov 2020 #261

And "radio" luv2fly Nov 2020 #264

When centrists win it's because centrism is what it takes to win... melman Nov 2020 #273

Dems have the presidency, more than half the House, almost half the senate (regardless of GA outcome Demovictory9 Dec 2020 #282

This thread needs to be a stickie! Catch2.2 Dec 2020 #289

Why Republicans are resorting to anti-socialism hysteria Gothmog Dec 2020 #291