General Discussion

mtnsnake

(22,236 posts)

245. It's a thousand times better than your plan

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:16 PM

Dec 2020

which is to do absolutely nothing about their shenanigans and sit back and take whatever they dish out.

FYI, Democrats should certainly be able to govern AND fight back at the same time. As someone already mentioned, Democrats should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I think our Party is capable of doing that.

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Other than Katie Porter & a couple others, the Democratic Party STILL doesn't know how to fight back [View all] mtnsnake Dec 2020 OP

Yeah! Blame the Democrats! sweetloukillbot Dec 2020 #1

I don't want to sit back and watch them do nothing like you obviously prefer to do. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #4

What specific actions do you want wnylib Dec 2020 #124

THIS soldierant Dec 2020 #143

Beautiful! StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #153

⭐⭐ PERFECT! ⭐⭐ NurseJackie Dec 2020 #160

Thank you! betsuni Dec 2020 #162

10-4 that. fleabiscuit Dec 2020 #280

why do so many DUers assume the only action we take is beefing here? Skittles Dec 2020 #181

So tell us more about the actions. wnylib Dec 2020 #199

the bar is set very low for repukes Skittles Dec 2020 #224

Where is the outrage? wnylib Dec 2020 #242

ok, done here Skittles Dec 2020 #252

Interesting that I was thinking it wnylib Dec 2020 #255

Not sure how you can read wnylib's post and assume anything went over their head StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #258

Agreed. Why win elections when you could scream on tv? nt mattclearing Dec 2020 #288

Excellent perspective msfiddlestix Dec 2020 #302

Thank you. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #190

Yes, we the people have as much wnylib Dec 2020 #207

People are going to have to get more involved and invested in society if change is happening. betsuni Dec 2020 #219

In order to evolve... sheshe2 Dec 2020 #243

The solution given here is for more protests in the streets, strong language, betsuni Dec 2020 #244

It's a thousand times better than your plan mtnsnake Dec 2020 #245

When did I have a plan to do nothing and sit back? betsuni Dec 2020 #248

It's easier to attack a strawman than to admit that one doesn't have a ehrnst Dec 2020 #291

I really wanted to know how I had a terrible plan to sit back and do nothing! betsuni Dec 2020 #306

Apparently if you don't demand that Dems "scream bloody murder on TV every day" ehrnst Dec 2020 #310

Hm. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #247

I agree. It just doesn't work that way. Democratic voters aren't like Republican voters who don't betsuni Dec 2020 #250

I've never understood why some Democrats think the only way to beat Republicans StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #259

All the complaints that Democrats are Republican Lite and so on and now this. betsuni Dec 2020 #263

I find the "Democrats need to scream louder" to be the most immature form of political engagenent StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #266

Yes. Emotion, anger and loud screaming as "fighting" is immature. betsuni Dec 2020 #268

Betsuni, every Republican out there will surely agree with you mtnsnake Dec 2020 #271

I don't know where you're getting the "roll over and play dead" thing. betsuni Dec 2020 #273

False dilemma AND a strawman fallacy ehrnst Dec 2020 #289

There is nothing more immature than posting the same exact thing a dozen times in 1 thread mtnsnake Dec 2020 #270

Point taken and I agree. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #269

Beautifully said, as usual StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #275

Thank you. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #278

It's certainly working well for MAGA crowd - Maybe we need to get flags and trucks? sweetloukillbot Dec 2020 #309

Thank you, wnylib Hekate Dec 2020 #196

Sorry, wnylib, with umpteen posts in the trhead I didnt see your post until just a while ago mtnsnake Dec 2020 #217

+1000 Maven Dec 2020 #220

Your point about messaging is wnylib Dec 2020 #251

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #256

Well said mtnsnake Dec 2020 #257

+1 to all three of you! Bettie Dec 2020 #260

Okay, I'll play Maven Dec 2020 #218

Awesome post, Maven mtnsnake Dec 2020 #222

Thank you! Maven Dec 2020 #226

Yep, our party...yes, OUR party Bettie Dec 2020 #297

Thank YOU! smirkymonkey Dec 2020 #136

No problem mtnsnake Dec 2020 #148

Passivity? StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #191

I was amused by this claim also Gothmog Dec 2020 #329

You can tell the people who aren't really interested in progress but just want to complain StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #330

+10000000000000000 betsuni Dec 2020 #331

Agreed. Asking our folks to fight harder is NOT blaming them but coaching them samsingh Dec 2020 #149

So what are you looking for? Have you ever been involved in legislation or negotiations.... George II Dec 2020 #193

You are wrong in your analysis Gothmog Dec 2020 #328

Yeah, a few more stern letters will work any day now. nt Doremus Dec 2020 #6

The Dems being seen as weak allows people to think that both parties don't represent the people DSandra Dec 2020 #39

The Democrat That Said Trump Should Be Arrested On Jan 20 As He Leaves The White House? DanieRains Dec 2020 #132

If anyone surrendered before a fight began in any other setting, it's be seen as betrayal DSandra Dec 2020 #166

Weak Dem image suppresses voter turnout??? wnylib Dec 2020 #138

Actions must be bold. Language must be bold. When bullies bluster and threaten, get in their face. Magoo48 Dec 2020 #154

Like the stern letter about the coronavirus stimulus plan signed by Bernie Sanders and five other betsuni Dec 2020 #141

+10000. ehrnst Dec 2020 #295

I hate to say it, but you have a good point. They do need to be taking OnDoutside Dec 2020 #2

Tend to agree somewhat. triron Dec 2020 #7

Yes, there's no reason why Democrats can't be strident in taking OnDoutside Dec 2020 #60

Maybe you missed these? ehrnst Dec 2020 #298

I agree. We need better communicators. Porter puts the message in "kitchen table" terms Raven123 Dec 2020 #3

Exactly. Our people are great people & super intelligent but mtnsnake Dec 2020 #8

Yes, MUCH better communicators needed. elleng Dec 2020 #31

Why do you think communication is the problem? StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #36

I have never said that 'screaming and yelling' would change any minds. elleng Dec 2020 #57

So does AOC. And Swalwell. And Brian Schatz. And many others. Maven Dec 2020 #131

They're our hope for the future. WinstonSmith4740 Dec 2020 #158

Committee Assignments sheshe2 Dec 2020 #261

Apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us? nt fleabiscuit Dec 2020 #281

... betsuni Dec 2020 #282

... sheshe2 Dec 2020 #320

... fleabiscuit Dec 2020 #325

Screaming bloody murder is still just talking. Walleye Dec 2020 #5

Well, for starters, since you asked mtnsnake Dec 2020 #12

No I agree. But, it's still just talking and no one is listening. Walleye Dec 2020 #14

I'm sure that Mitch McConnell will vote to impeach him if we yell louder sweetloukillbot Dec 2020 #19

Yes, Mitch and the Trump humpers TOTALLY respond to yelling on the part of Democratic leaders. ehrnst Dec 2020 #304

And what will the result of that be? StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #20

Who are you even talking about? Budi Dec 2020 #23

Sitting on their thumbs? Like this? ehrnst Dec 2020 #299

'It's Treason.' House Democrats Seize On 'Transcript' of Trump's Ukraine Call ehrnst Dec 2020 #303

Yell it louder, slower and sound really really mad when we do it StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #13

Do you honestly think the "Trump is undermining democracy" meme hasn't gotten us anywhere? mtnsnake Dec 2020 #22

How exactly do you think Democrats going on tv and screaming bloody murder is going to change their StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #24

If you don't know what screaming bloody murder is, then that explains mtnsnake Dec 2020 #34

Nice dodge. But since you seem to be an expert on screaming bloody murder StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #47

Nice try mtnsnake Dec 2020 #56

And an effective try. nt fleabiscuit Dec 2020 #283

+1000. When one can't articulate what is demanding, then the likelihood of getting that demand ehrnst Dec 2020 #293

This is a valid and constructive critique of the party's strategy that in no way violates DU rules. Towlie Dec 2020 #9

Appreciate this. cilla4progress Dec 2020 #27

Thank you. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #38

Agree! mountain grammy Dec 2020 #93

Post removed Post removed Dec 2020 #10

Post removed Post removed Dec 2020 #15

Maybe not. Towlie Dec 2020 #50

Post removed Post removed Dec 2020 #109

Yeah. Who cares about the Senate kcr Dec 2020 #116

Thanks for making my point LiberalLovinLug Dec 2020 #151

Oh, right. 2010? How did that turnout? kcr Dec 2020 #169

Amen Hekate Dec 2020 #201

Correct. betsuni Dec 2020 #208

Well, J try and stay on topic. There are plenty of other Republican bashing threads. LiberalLovinLug Dec 2020 #277

Democrats had a 60 vote filibuster-proof majority in the senate for all of four months and ten days betsuni Dec 2020 #279

About the topic of public support for M4A, since you brought it into the discussion... ehrnst Dec 2020 #301

What many advocates of the as-yet incomplete "M4A" (there still are huge funding gaps!) do is... George II Dec 2020 #311

Yes, specificity seems to be in short supply in some quarters. ehrnst Dec 2020 #312

Well, LLL, Staying on topic...and using your sports analogy: ehrnst Dec 2020 #307

+1000! mcar Dec 2020 #314

A majority of Americans do NOT support "M4A". Not even close to a majority. George II Dec 2020 #313

Those attacks began even before Obama was sworn in. He was being bashed for some of his... George II Dec 2020 #300

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #305

+1000. ehrnst Dec 2020 #308

Oh yeah? What "Point" was that? Cha Dec 2020 #315

Post removed Post removed Dec 2020 #212

Thank you for letting me know mtnsnake Dec 2020 #221

This is hardly the first discussion like this treestar Dec 2020 #97

I don't feel like a piece of software.I feel like a DU member who said I'd be willing to be on Jury Hekate Dec 2020 #111

I've had posts hidden for questioning the importance of dry powder Orrex Dec 2020 #135

But constructive criticism IS allowed. But that not welcome often. Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2020 #179

Perhaps blaming Democrats causes more damage Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #11

Groupthink is not good as well, it doesn't allow for justified critiques and is ultimately harmful DSandra Dec 2020 #26

Once more, with feeling: Hillary lost the Electoral College in a game of peeling off fringes... Hekate Dec 2020 #95

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #159

There was still significant room for improvement in Hillary's Campaign DSandra Dec 2020 #176

The fact is, Clinton lost.......in 2016. Now in 2020 Biden won. But people are still complaining.... George II Dec 2020 #241

Republicans don't attack their right flank. We attack our left nonstop Sympthsical Dec 2020 #16

+10,000 mtnsnake Dec 2020 #25

Wrong, Symph. The GOP did not attack their wingnuts & were themselves absorbed by wingnuts... Hekate Dec 2020 #40

correct treestar Dec 2020 #80

Many of us object to AOC going after Democrats instead of Republicans mcar Dec 2020 #41

Did you object when Pelosi endorsed Joe Kennedy over incumbent Markey? Bradshaw3 Dec 2020 #91

Does Pelosi regularly slam Democrats mcar Dec 2020 #210

+1 fleabiscuit Dec 2020 #284

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #285

+1000. ehrnst Dec 2020 #292

That's funny because when she goes after, say, Marco Rubio Bettie Dec 2020 #92

I didn't complain about that mcar Dec 2020 #117

Huh? She goes after Republicans and their policies CONSTANTLY Maven Dec 2020 #229

True. I keep an eye on her. She's slammin' Republicans, Rubio the 2024 contender especially. ancianita Dec 2020 #327

The left is Nancy Pelosi JI7 Dec 2020 #43

Yep. mcar Dec 2020 #211

AOC on Pelosi: "her personal politics are very progressive." betsuni Dec 2020 #326

No one hates them left. So stop. Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #61

HA. progressoid Dec 2020 #114

This right here melman Dec 2020 #69

No our left flank attacks us treestar Dec 2020 #78

And yet no one has anything bad to say about her until she bashes Democrats and the party. MrsCoffee Dec 2020 #100

Um, when she went after Marco Rubio Bettie Dec 2020 #112

+1 progressoid Dec 2020 #115

Who on our side attacked her for going after a Republican? kcr Dec 2020 #134

Here is the thread, I'm not going to "call out" Bettie Dec 2020 #145

You didn't post a link kcr Dec 2020 #147

Ooops. I didn't hit the paste key Bettie Dec 2020 #150

All I see is one who objected to swear words kcr Dec 2020 #163

She may get more criticism than she deserves. She also gets more praise and credit than she's earned StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #165

There was just a whole ass thread where people were.. aidbo Dec 2020 #178

I agree 100% and excellent comment. SophieJean Dec 2020 #126

The only thing that works is get the most votes/representatives. Screaming bloody murder... brush Dec 2020 #17

But talk and fighting back effectively motivates the base DSandra Dec 2020 #33

The base of the democratic party is the opposite of the base of the Republican Party JI7 Dec 2020 #45

I'm as Democrat in demographic profile as one can get, and I want Democrats to fight harder DSandra Dec 2020 #182

Citation needed... Callado119 Dec 2020 #215

Good point! betsuni Dec 2020 #225

+1 million zillion treestar Dec 2020 #98

+1 million superpatriotman Dec 2020 #18

"LIAR LIAR LIAR!!!" StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #29

Your sarcasm is noted superpatriotman Dec 2020 #35

It was a reasonable question mcar Dec 2020 #37

You give hope and courage and support superpatriotman Dec 2020 #49

Democrats going on tv and calling people liars tells millions of people StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #63

Dems bad! Dems bad! Dems bad! mcar Dec 2020 #21

Who posted that and where is it? Let me know so I can alert. Crunchy Frog Dec 2020 #167

Joe Manchin knows how to fight. He won many times in a very red state. JI7 Dec 2020 #28

Post removed Post removed Dec 2020 #30

Thing is, this critique is being shared among "family, here. cilla4progress Dec 2020 #32

Katie Porter is Katie Porter JI7 Dec 2020 #42

This kind of demand is really about satisfying the desire for red meat among the already converted StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #44

Are we so helpless that we can't go after THEM? What about what they're doing to Hunter Biden? mtnsnake Dec 2020 #48

Yelling at people isn't "going after them." It's just yelling StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #53

You keep insisting that this is only about yelling and screaming when it is anything but that. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #62

All you've proposed is yelling and screaming StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #64

Not true. I proposed taking action. Read the first sentence of my post. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #70

Yes, you proposed "taking action" yet somehow keep forgetting to share what that action is StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #74

Why is it that you want to see the GOP continue walking all over us with no response? mtnsnake Dec 2020 #83

You fail to see the power of words LiberalLovinLug Dec 2020 #94

And they have message discipline Bettie Dec 2020 #99

+1000 smirkymonkey Dec 2020 #152

Yes - "Voters take their cue from their leaders" StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #103

"Claiming that "words have power" is not a defense to that kind of empty posturing" LiberalLovinLug Dec 2020 #128

NO. You're Wrong.. she doesn't "fail" as you say Cha Dec 2020 #317

What "action" do you want them to take? That could mean anything..... George II Dec 2020 #231

No matter how many more times you nag me about this mtnsnake Dec 2020 #232

So, in other words you don't like what Schumer, et. al., are doing but you can't say how.... George II Dec 2020 #234

whatever mtnsnake Dec 2020 #235

whatever....just read it. In other words nothing specific - just what another poster spoke about. George II Dec 2020 #239

That's a crock and you know it mtnsnake Dec 2020 #240

More strawmen and false dilemma fallacies ehrnst Dec 2020 #290

What about Hunter Biden ? Barr said there is nothing there . JI7 Dec 2020 #55

Good point, JI7. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #72

Even Katy Porter doesn't do what you suggest kcr Dec 2020 #46

It's Katie, not Katy mtnsnake Dec 2020 #51

Pretty sorry attempt on your part kcr Dec 2020 #65

"There's nothng about taking action in my OP"?? Really? It's right there in the first sentence mtnsnake Dec 2020 #67

REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! kcr Dec 2020 #68

Really StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #76

You still haven't explained why you'd rather sit back and do nothing. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #79

Interesting choice to respond to the non-yelly "really" kcr Dec 2020 #84

Because I don't get baited by bullshit StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #85

Again with the same strawman and false dilemma ehrnst Dec 2020 #296

Exactly. StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #52

Yup, The reason she is good is because she understands the issue and doesn't just repeat talking poi JI7 Dec 2020 #58

too much investment in "comity" and institutional tradition. Grasswire2 Dec 2020 #54

At this time in history, our nation needs calm. That is one of the patricia92243 Dec 2020 #59

It is, apparently, never the time for Bettie Dec 2020 #265

+1000 mtnsnake Dec 2020 #272

I love how some folks are trying to make like my post is only about screaming and yelling mtnsnake Dec 2020 #66

What action? treestar Dec 2020 #87

Yes, hard to miss. Such a mischaracterization, quite a distraction from JudyM Dec 2020 #90

Thank you. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #101

Katie, Kamala, AOC, others, are representing the best we can be. eom. Alex4Martinez Dec 2020 #71

BS. One more "Democrats don't know how to fight" stopdiggin Dec 2020 #73

Excellent response StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #77

Thank you. The eternal "Why didn't/don't Democrats stop ____ ?" complaint. betsuni Dec 2020 #185

Yup, always the fault of those Democrats Progressive dog Dec 2020 #75

This is why I love Katie Porter! Lucky Luciano Dec 2020 #81

Enough of this! treestar Dec 2020 #82

Some of us, DENVERPOPS Dec 2020 #86

You're welcome mtnsnake Dec 2020 #113

Rec Ponietz Dec 2020 #88

What should they be doing? cwydro Dec 2020 #89

We can at least turn the tables on them. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #96

In what way should we "turn the tables on them"? Calling them names? pnwmom Dec 2020 #104

Nothing will make "conservative" a dirty word faster kcr Dec 2020 #107

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #192

Thanks for fighting the good fight Bettie Dec 2020 #102

You're very welcome mtnsnake Dec 2020 #110

Nonsense. Nobody is saying that. NurseJackie Dec 2020 #157

Brings back memories. betsuni Dec 2020 #195

Said no Democrat ever. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #171

The Lincoln Project proved this Loge23 Dec 2020 #105

I am very surprised this OP was allowed to stand. MontanaMama Dec 2020 #106

Thank you for trying. NurseJackie Dec 2020 #197

I've been screaming the same message for decades. Paladin Dec 2020 #108

Excellent post mtnsnake Dec 2020 #120

There shouldn't be a FIGHT to begin with. Brainfodder Dec 2020 #118

I agree 100% HootieMcBoob Dec 2020 #119

Constructive criticism isn't screaming, yelling, bashing or trashing, so thank you for this. democrank Dec 2020 #121

We don't have to nod our heads all the time kcr Dec 2020 #125

I agree. democrank Dec 2020 #137

Lord. Nobody is suggesting that. NurseJackie Dec 2020 #168

Well, except only to suggest we give it right back to them kcr Dec 2020 #173

Ah, yes! You're certainly right about that! NurseJackie Dec 2020 #177

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #198

Hear, hear! smirkymonkey Dec 2020 #155

How about they explain this new deal that we are getting. We were offered a vsrazdem Dec 2020 #122

No. "Nancy Pelosi didn't 'turn down' a great deal and then accept a much worse deal. There wasn't betsuni Dec 2020 #200

You're 100% right. It's time for a new generation of leadership who understands: Maven Dec 2020 #123

Well said! Bettie Dec 2020 #139

I agree with both you and Maven dflprincess Dec 2020 #249

For starters Oscarthegreat Dec 2020 #127

Yes mtnsnake Dec 2020 #133

AMEN!!! FFS yes! LymphocyteLover Dec 2020 #253

Democrats have been calling him that for years StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #264

Remember when Hillary Clinton called him a puppet of Putin in 2016. betsuni Dec 2020 #267

But when Democrats fight back or speak out.. aidbo Dec 2020 #129

Please define "play the game" and "fight fire with fire". Caliman73 Dec 2020 #130

In the Top Ten Biden moves homegirl Dec 2020 #140

The president doesn't impeach Supreme Court justices StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #228

Do you have any homegirl Dec 2020 #316

I have serious doubts she would waste her time with such an effort StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #318

I should have been homegirl Dec 2020 #322

You are right and I'm really tired of it. Pepsidog Dec 2020 #142

I agree. Our timidity - and 'taking high road bullshit - is risking our Democracy samsingh Dec 2020 #144

Keepin' the powder dry Bettie Dec 2020 #146

Like The Dems with Leader Nancy Cha Dec 2020 #194

I remember how folks DEMANDED Pelosi impeach Trump and called her a weak coward StarfishSaver Dec 2020 #202

+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #205

Yeah, I remember that, too.. all Cha Dec 2020 #213

Sing it! sheshe2 Dec 2020 #227

This message was self-deleted by its author betsuni Dec 2020 #286

+ eternity. sheshe2 Dec 2020 #223

So you think being a some sort of unified fighting machine relayerbob Dec 2020 #156

Your words not mine. nt mtnsnake Dec 2020 #161

Yes, playing offense, what a concept BeyondGeography Dec 2020 #164

Exactly. Thank you. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #170

Thanks for the thread BeyondGeography Dec 2020 #172

Excellent point. nt Maven Dec 2020 #230

Agree with you 100 percent. I_UndergroundPanther Dec 2020 #276

Oh my! Can't believe the blind loyalty crowd hasn't zapped this. Kudos Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2020 #174

Please go easy with such divisive and specious bellyaching like this. WE need to GOTV better and Prof.Higgins Dec 2020 #175

it's why we need NEW BLOOD Skittles Dec 2020 #180

You are getting a lot of flack for your post but you are right! crimycarny Dec 2020 #183

Yes, we sure can improve on that mtnsnake Dec 2020 #184

What are the problems, again, with our messaging? Please at least begin a list. ancianita Dec 2020 #187

Why do you need a list? crimycarny Dec 2020 #274

Condensing our message problems is a good start, is why. ancianita Dec 2020 #294

With slight modifications crimycarny Dec 2020 #319

Okay. Well. See, I thought I was summarizing what you said, so here's an example of ancianita Dec 2020 #321

??? crimycarny Dec 2020 #323

... ancianita Dec 2020 #324

House Democrats have done a lot since 2016. ancianita Dec 2020 #186

Thank you! betsuni Dec 2020 #204

Sure, keep bashing EVERY Democrat except for "a couple of others", i.e. all but 3..... George II Dec 2020 #188

"the ones that make the least noise are the ones that are actually accomplishing things" betsuni Dec 2020 #206

That's why it would be interesting to know of whom the OP is speaking, so we CAN.... George II Dec 2020 #209

It's, you know, "them." betsuni Dec 2020 #216

Attack on Democrats on a Democratic board! AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #189

trump LOST the FUCKING Election in a Cha Dec 2020 #203

Hey Cha hows it going mtnsnake Dec 2020 #214

If that's not fighting back, I don't know what is. betsuni Dec 2020 #287

Here's why Republicans are good at messaging and communication: betsuni Dec 2020 #233

Good post. mtnsnake Dec 2020 #236

We outspent them 2:1 in 2020 House contests BeyondGeography Dec 2020 #237

Thank you. Maven Dec 2020 #238

yes, we need to do a better job getting our message out LymphocyteLover Dec 2020 #254

but but but aoc is gonna doom the party. mopinko Dec 2020 #246

Newly minted Dem Steve Schmidt knows how to do it DeminPennswoods Dec 2020 #262