General Discussion

EndlessWire

(8,103 posts)

52. Yeah, it's definitional

Tue May 9, 2023, 03:19 PM

May 2023

But, I think she testified how much his fingers hurt. I'm not surprised that the jury said "no" on the rape but "yes" to sexual assault. That's a reasonable response, IMO. They did award a decent amount of damages, so I think that signals that they were very aware of the problematic definition.

According to the Judge's instructions, I believe they could have found him guilty of the battery merely for forcing a kiss on her. So, the jury was in very safe territory when they said "yes."

The media almost always declines to use the word "rape" to describe something that happened, even when it is starkly apparent that a woman was raped. They like to term it, "sexual assault," possibly for liability reasons. I dunno, it just bugs me.

It should at least be, "attempted rape with a tiny dick."

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OK, definitely need some clarification from our attorneys here. [View all] WinstonSmith4740 May 2023 OP

Groping vs penetration. Sneederbunk May 2023 #1

There are a lot of ways to commit sexual assault. Tomconroy May 2023 #2

And what was used to penetrate. Ocelot II May 2023 #6

Lol. Tomconroy May 2023 #9

... sprinkleeninow May 2023 #12

LOL! I love it! n/t EndlessWire May 2023 #44

Exactly Nevilledog May 2023 #29

What was used and if penetration occurred; Rape can involve a foreign object or a penis. allegorical oracle May 2023 #53

Yes, but the instruction in this case involved only the question of whether Ocelot II May 2023 #54

I guessing it comes down to they didn't find it conclusive that he penetrated her with his penis Hugh_Lebowski May 2023 #3

His protests of "no rape" is the first thing that went through my mind. WinstonSmith4740 May 2023 #7

Reading that she couldn't tell if it was his fingers or penis because it was from behind. Nevilledog May 2023 #31

No rape - Ocelot II May 2023 #34

I do hope the media makes a big deal about it. :) LiberalFighter May 2023 #46

That would be the only "big deal." Ocelot II May 2023 #47

My gut says that count was a compromise decision Siwsan May 2023 #4

I don't know what the jury instructions said, but from comments on MSNBC Ocelot II May 2023 #5

Instructions Bernardo de La Paz May 2023 #11

The jury special verdict form broke it into two separate questions - Ocelot II May 2023 #14

Were they using the criminal definitions of those terms? Ms. Toad May 2023 #21

They used a definition of rape as requiring penetration Ocelot II May 2023 #22

. Effete Snob May 2023 #25

But that's the *criminal* statute defining the *crime* of rape. Ocelot II May 2023 #26

yes, and that is the same distinction in the criminal statute, verbatim. Effete Snob May 2023 #42

OK, there we have it. Thanks. Ocelot II May 2023 #45

Looks like the original claims were battery and defamation. Ms. Toad May 2023 #70

That would be bad too. LiberalFighter May 2023 #49

Yeah, it's definitional EndlessWire May 2023 #52

I heard it originally characterized as "sexual abuse". n/t whathehell May 2023 #8

Clearly, they did believe he grabbed her by the p***y. Ocelot II May 2023 #10

... sprinkleeninow May 2023 #58

no intercourse for sexual assault...but victim could not be sure he put his penis in her...couldn't Demsrule86 May 2023 #13

Considering what Stormy Daniels said, I guess that's not surprising... Ocelot II May 2023 #16

She wasn't sure she had felt his penis, not just fingers unc70 May 2023 #17

I guess Stormy was right. Ocelot II May 2023 #48

Not a lawyer, but just heard on MSNBC LuckyCharms May 2023 #15

That would be a state law variation. Ms. Toad May 2023 #19

In North Carolina, penetration by penis into vagina is required to meet definition of rape. yardwork May 2023 #35

Ohio trivia - Ms. Toad May 2023 #61

Wow. I'd never heard that. yardwork May 2023 #63

Guess it was a case of being careful what you wish for. Ms. Toad May 2023 #64

He was not found guilty of anything. Ms. Toad May 2023 #18

. Effete Snob May 2023 #24

That's the criminal statute. I'd like to see the civil jury instructions. Ocelot II May 2023 #27

I haven't found anything yet - Ms. Toad May 2023 #30

I can't find them either; it looks like you have to buy the book. Ocelot II May 2023 #32

Try the docket Effete Snob May 2023 #39

Thank you! I should have thought to look there in the first place. Ocelot II May 2023 #51

Yes: NY law defines rape as including SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. Hortensis May 2023 #65

It's on the docket Effete Snob May 2023 #40

Thanks! Ms. Toad May 2023 #60

I know how you feel. Effete Snob May 2023 #62

Good luck with this. Many have tried... yardwork May 2023 #36

Shocking, huh? You'd be less shocked in France, Hortensis May 2023 #66

Rape he did it, sexual assault he tried. GoodRaisin May 2023 #20

Not exactly. yardwork May 2023 #37

But the judge allowed the Hollywood Access tape too. Trump told the jury exactly who he was GoodRaisin May 2023 #56

Right. I'm just saying the rape issue is a technicality. yardwork May 2023 #57

Understood. GoodRaisin May 2023 #59

Here Effete Snob May 2023 #23

What are the civil jury instructions? The criminal definition might not apply. Ocelot II May 2023 #28

From what was partially transcribed here... Effete Snob May 2023 #33

The criminal definitions were used Effete Snob May 2023 #38

A penis is necessary - but since Carroll couldn't tell for sure Ocelot II May 2023 #41

"A penis is necessary" Effete Snob May 2023 #43

His is apparently indistinguishable from a finger. Ocelot II May 2023 #50

Presumably his finger doesn't ejaculate Effete Snob May 2023 #55

The definition in most states is similar in that rape is Hortensis May 2023 #67

Assault is the fear of imminent and offensive contact. Tommy Carcetti May 2023 #68

Also wildly different between states Effete Snob May 2023 #69

IANAL, but it is my understanding that in NY ExWhoDoesntCare May 2023 #71