General Discussion

Mossfern

(4,596 posts)

253. Pragmatic thinking

Mon Jan 8, 2024, 10:31 AM

Jan 2024

is not trying to kill as many civilians as possible if the goal is to eliminate Hamas - it's deciding the most efficient way of obtaining an objective. (Protecting people in Israel)

Honestly I don't know if there would be many fewer deaths of civilians if Israel went in with ground troops - it's not as if Hamas wears uniforms. Their "warriors" hide amongst civilian families and there are "civilian" collaborators.

How are IDF to know the difference? Hamas doesn't care about innocent civilians - otherwise they wouldn't be hiding amongst them, storing weapons in schools and homes, launching missiles for hospitals, schools, places of worship. It's Hamas that is culpable of war crimes and their objective is to rid the land of Israel and the earth of all Jews and eventually all non Muslims.

Israel's objective is to protect their people.

Just to remind you, in case you didn't know my views: I am vehemently against Netanyahu, Likud, West Bank settlers and the right wing in Israel. My children attended Habonim Dror summer camps - our values in our home have always been for peace with the Palestinian people...just like those who were murdered in Kibbutzim on 10/7. For goodness sake, Hamas attacked a Peace festival! There are Israelis protesting the continued bombing of Gaza - how many Palestinians are protesting Hamas atrocities?

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

258 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Hamas' brutality is unpardonable [View all] TexasDem69 Jan 2024 OP

Exactly Calculating Jan 2024 #1

The brutality on both sides is off the chart unpardonable. marble falls Jan 2024 #2

I haven't seen any stories about the IDF TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #3

Yes, where are the stories of IDF raping women and chopping off men's penises? Beakybird Jan 2024 #5

Rec TY. Cha Jan 2024 #6

However claudette Jan 2024 #10

We killed hundreds of thousands of children in WW II by bombs. former9thward Jan 2024 #11

Hell yes we should be, but IMO that comparison isn't very solid Orrex Jan 2024 #22

As long as the sides are "equal," killing civilians is okay? Nice logic AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #29

I'd like you to point out who the fuck said that, exactly. Orrex Jan 2024 #33

WWII was a fairly symmetrical war between major national powers, and the weaponry of the time had little ability to yiel AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #34

Could you repeat the part where you pretend I said that killing civilians is ok? Orrex Jan 2024 #39

3% of the world's population was killed during WW2 using those weapons. AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #42

If that's your opinion, then go ahead and own it Orrex Jan 2024 #43

Who thinks that it was OK then? Chainfire Jan 2024 #145

OK is irrelevant. What is necessary is what matters. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #209

The big problem with your argument is that you suggest that the bombing decided the war. Chainfire Jan 2024 #227

It was won by both. Attrition and disruption were significant factors TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #255

There was little attrition or disruption. There was, however, a lot of civilian deaths. Chainfire Jan 2024 #256

Weird flex... Happy Hoosier Jan 2024 #49

It wasn't a flex, merely a statement about an ugly reality Orrex Jan 2024 #52

Absolutely n.t. RocRizzo55 Jan 2024 #54

Happy people like you were not in charge of war planning in WW II. former9thward Jan 2024 #61

More whataboutism. RocRizzo55 Jan 2024 #155

What claudette Jan 2024 #57

I would call it a god-damned shame that terrorists would mine an entire city, creating a city under a city Hekate Jan 2024 #99

War. former9thward Jan 2024 #154

Of course we should. It was not right then and it is not right now. Chainfire Jan 2024 #144

This is true. But Israel isn't trying to kill children. They're trying to kill terrorists. That's a big distinction. Beakybird Jan 2024 #13

but but - so how do you kill 10,000 kids & injure 25,000 without trying? You have to be really incompetent or a womanofthehills Jan 2024 #19

Hamas uses them as human shields. Why not attack Hamas for doing that? AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #31

Not those who claudette Jan 2024 #59

Actually they are ripcord Jan 2024 #64

Not sure claudette Jan 2024 #66

1400 on october 7th is just collatarel damage? they were innocent too. AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #69

No claudette Jan 2024 #70

Hamas uses innocents as human shields. How many innodent Japanese had to be killed for Pearl Harbor? AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #73

They used claudette Jan 2024 #74

Calling It A Response, Ma'am, Gives The Game Away The Magistrate Jan 2024 #75

how else do you eliminate hamas? AlexSFCA Jan 2024 #135

"Brutal response"? Israel shouldn't hand wring while kitchen-made rockets rain down. They get to end the barrage quickly SoFlaBro Jan 2024 #171

How many babies in Gaza "refused ceasefires" ? DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #97

How many of the 1400 killed 10/7 were military or government targets? AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #102

Very few, I'm sure.... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #106

But... sheshe2 Jan 2024 #119

The number is . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #156

In other words, they don't actually know. N/T AloeVera Jan 2024 #166

Your view of history is in error. The US threatened Japan to get out of SE Asia TeamProg Jan 2024 #232

This message was self-deleted by its author MichMan Jan 2024 #251

If Hamas would surrender, turn over the planners/perpetrators of the 10/7 attacks, kelly1mm Jan 2024 #159

Consider a strong theory: Richard D Jan 2024 #170

Hamas uses the deaths to serve up endless tiktok and twitter memes, reducing the struggle to bully vs victim elias7 Jan 2024 #235

The question is why you and others here cannot respect our sorrow and mourning and have to question everything Jan 2024 #35

actually - the OP highlighted Hamas brutality stopdiggin Jan 2024 #56

"Guess you haven't been over on TicToc or Twitter and viewed the thousands of horrific videos" and there you have it GuppyGal Jan 2024 #111

Ridiculous comparison. WW2 was 80yrs ago; war was fought differently. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #77

You claudette Jan 2024 #83

The UN reported 1000s of dead children? Hamas is in charge of what info comes out of Gaza. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #86

The death-toll is likely way under-counted. AloeVera Jan 2024 #175

I'm sure the numbers are high, but ALL deaths are on Hamas oldsoftie Jan 2024 #190

Maybe the Gazan's should pay heed when told to move for their safety EX500rider Jan 2024 #82

That kind of "evacuation" forced by Israel is illegal in the first place. AloeVera Jan 2024 #162

Hello - where is it safe? womanofthehills Jan 2024 #211

You forgot . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #21

A baby in Palestine is just as dead from a 2000 pound bomb dropped by Israel.... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author Abolishinist Jan 2024 #110

For those who are true believers in the tenets of the Quran, Abolishinist Jan 2024 #117

Your post is over the line iemanja Jan 2024 #122

I beg your pardon? Abolishinist Jan 2024 #124

The version you since edited iemanja Jan 2024 #168

No, the only problem I realized after your response is that because of my poorly worded Abolishinist Jan 2024 #172

Does that mean Israel's killing children is okay in your view? iemanja Jan 2024 #173

If a soulless motherfucker has so little value for his own TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #239

The post I originally responded to was in turn responding kelly1mm Jan 2024 #160

Did you read the unedited version? iemanja Jan 2024 #167

I do see it now and I agree it is close to. if not crossing the line. I will edit my post. nt kelly1mm Jan 2024 #247

For the gazillionth time Mossfern Jan 2024 #164

Because none of the mainstream media RocRizzo55 Jan 2024 #53

Ah, there we go... AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #76

Yup The Revolution Jan 2024 #96

Is this a "Jews control the media" post? egduj Jan 2024 #140

NO!!!!! RocRizzo55 Jan 2024 #143

Oh we know who AIPAC is AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #149

It absolutely was. It is amazing how reflexively the vile tropes come. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #222

We've already gotten "killed Jesus" AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #230

That's because instead they blew her into a million pieces with a 2000 pound bomb. DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #219

That didn't take long NickB79 Jan 2024 #8

Never does. Behind the Aegis Jan 2024 #40

What I love is all of the what about WWII bombings. Chainfire Jan 2024 #146

Bothsiderism is a rhetorical tool of the most wicked TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #9

Mentioning the consequences of the IDF's indiscriminate bombing is not "bothsiderism" Bucky Jan 2024 #120

Heads they win, tails Israel loses. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #189

There's ways to fight Hamas that don't involve leveling apartment buildings and killing thousands of innocent people Bucky Jan 2024 #205

Most of those methods are being employed but do little TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #210

Israel did not kill Sinwar! It was some other Hamas dude in Lebanon (Sorry can't remember his name) LeftInTX Jan 2024 #233

Ok thanks. It was their deputy chief Saleh al-Arouri Bucky Jan 2024 #238

More bothsidersome. former9thward Jan 2024 #12

Both sider-ism is as hollow an argument as what about-ism. AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #17

Even so, is there a point where we stop blaming Hamas for Israel's actions? Orrex Jan 2024 #23

Yeah. . .Israel asked to be attacked on October 7th. It's their fault and they deserved it AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #27

I'd like you to point out who the fuck said that, exactly. Orrex Jan 2024 #37

After Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2006 they had elections question everything Jan 2024 #65

A beautiful example of deflection. TeamProg Jan 2024 #44

BOTH SIDES are to blame for TOO MANY Dead Babies... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #50

"Or does the campaign continue until everyone in Gaza is dead?" EX500rider Jan 2024 #109

Suggesting that there may be less dead civilians isn't necessarily a good thing Orrex Jan 2024 #113

When Hamas has been obliterated and can no longer be a threat. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #174

Just to be clear: Orrex Jan 2024 #181

I didn't mince words. I said as many as it takes and as few as possible. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #194

You're right claudette Jan 2024 #67

I don't see any IDF Soldiers Raping, Mutilating, Cha Jan 2024 #126

Is bombing innocent people in their homes not butchering? Chainfire Jan 2024 #147

Nope. Hamas is pure evil. jimfields33 Jan 2024 #152

I guess as long as they don't do THOSE things... AloeVera Jan 2024 #188

"Both sides". HAMAS Started This Cha Jan 2024 #4

This video so enraged me, October 7, nocoincidences Jan 2024 #7

The shame is that those who consider themselves mcar Jan 2024 #14

Because Jewish women don't matter to them. EllieBC Jan 2024 #16

As the title of the book says "People Love Dead Jews." AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #18

Actually, women don't matter to them. Women are not whole beings in the Hamas world view. GoneOffShore Jan 2024 #71

I've wondered if this played into the "Jewish Princess" trope AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #161

Shameful indeed. sheshe2 Jan 2024 #25

Exactly. Now you're called a right winger for calling out hate Nixie Jan 2024 #80

I've been gobsmacked since Oct. 7 mcar Jan 2024 #100

Well said. The heartless propaganda is thick Nixie Jan 2024 #121

Exactly!! nocoincidences Jan 2024 #15

What? AloeVera Jan 2024 #187

Let's talk about rabid animals' physical abuse, sexual humiliation, physical and psychological torture and rape. TeamProg Jan 2024 #20

Horseshit. nocoincidences Jan 2024 #24

Pardon me? You don't believe the abuses of U.S. soldiers on Iraqis and others? TeamProg Jan 2024 #26

Not relevant to the topic. nocoincidences Jan 2024 #30

We are talking about the abuses of war. Abu Graib is completely relevant. TeamProg Jan 2024 #38

If you care about the victims of October 7th AloeVera Jan 2024 #186

Bothsideism. revmclaren Jan 2024 #32

its not even both sides do it lapfog_1 Jan 2024 #127

Very true. revmclaren Jan 2024 #128

YES. people WERE punished for Abu Graib. Hamas had parades with hostages. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #137

... revmclaren Jan 2024 #28

No, let's not! Start your own thread, don't hijack others'. Are you capable? question everything Jan 2024 #36

I'm only referring to some history of abuses that happen in war. Most humans don't blame all Americans for TeamProg Jan 2024 #41

A handful? You must have very very large hands. NoRethugFriends Jan 2024 #45

I was being generous, probably LESS than a handful of Hamas members were doing such atrocities, but I can't say. TeamProg Jan 2024 #48

These atrocities were part of the PLAN of attack. This is how THEY operate. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #138

All of them. THIS WAS THE FUCKING PLAN! TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #176

You don't know that. Lots of assuming there. nt TeamProg Jan 2024 #197

You seem to have an idea of an actual number. yagotme Jan 2024 #198

Already discussed above. TeamProg Jan 2024 #199

From videos released, it was more than ten (handful). yagotme Jan 2024 #200

You seem to have an idea of an actual number. nt TeamProg Jan 2024 #201

You are the one refuting when someone posts an opinion on participation levels. yagotme Jan 2024 #203

Already discussed above. TeamProg Jan 2024 #204

What is your argument? TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #223

A: That what the US did at Abu Graib was about as bad. I'm not apologizing for the sickos in TeamProg Jan 2024 #231

What are comparing to what end other than white washing fucking Hamas again? TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #240

Or what the Turks did to the Armenians. All horrible! All done before! S. Africa has filed paperwork for Netayahu to TeamProg Jan 2024 #242

The NYT article is very hard to read without getting sick and angry LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2024 #46

Yes claudette Jan 2024 #68

"Should never have happened" Nixie Jan 2024 #157

It's a never-ending battle on many fronts, isn't it. Abolishinist Jan 2024 #177

Yes it is. Quite deplorable even. Nixie Jan 2024 #193

You do realize the Arabs are saying exactly the same thing about the Israelis, right? Warpy Jan 2024 #51

So, HAMAS Started This SHIT. They don't give a Shit about Cha Jan 2024 #125

And because Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinians that gives Israel permission kill innocent Palestinians? Chainfire Jan 2024 #148

The genocidal extremists that have tried to wipe Israel TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #241

Indeed.... horrific... unpardonable.... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #55

it's not about making it even Richard D Jan 2024 #58

I think this is a missed point of the whole Israeli response. elias7 Jan 2024 #60

I think. Richard D Jan 2024 #62

Well, in this thread alone AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #79

I never thought I'd see such blatant antisemitism in DU. Richard D Jan 2024 #90

It is so missed . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #63

This is one of the best answers to this difficult question that I have seen. GoneOffShore Jan 2024 #72

+1000000 GuppyGal Jan 2024 #112

OK. So the number of civilian woman and children who die in Gaza DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #92

Yeah . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #93

I wouldn't drop 2000 pound bombs in civilian areas, DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #94

If you went in to do it yourself Mossfern Jan 2024 #245

"Pragmatic thinking"--- DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #249

Pragmatic thinking Mossfern Jan 2024 #253

So much So! Why don't some People Get that?! Cha Jan 2024 #129

False equivalency. Happy Hoosier Jan 2024 #153

This question: yagotme Jan 2024 #158

And Hamas promises CONTINUED attacks. Their stated goal is NO Israel. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #78

And Israel's stated goal is No Hamas.... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #95

"but neither party has the 'moral high ground' in this war...." What the actual fuck? GuppyGal Jan 2024 #114

The difference? sheshe2 Jan 2024 #123

Equating a terrorist group with a NATION is insane. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #136

22,000 Gazan Palestinians are just as dead as 1200 Israelis, DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #218

Violence is all that works against groups like Hamas. All the blood is on them. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #224

But Hamas doesn't have any 2000 pound bombs to drop... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #248

You don't think that terrorists who rape and dismember women and children should be eliminated? AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #202

Haaretz has mixed reports on the rapes womanofthehills Jan 2024 #212

I did not say that--- in fact, I did say that I despise them--- DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #217

I have said that I DO think so.... DemocraticPatriot Jan 2024 #250

As is Bibi's slaughter malaise Jan 2024 #81

That comparison is bullshit and you know it TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #84

Do you point out what Hamas has done EllieBC Jan 2024 #87

There are 22,000 dead Palestinians malaise Jan 2024 #88

So that's a no you don't point it out. EllieBC Jan 2024 #89

How should the IDF respond to the rape, torture and murder of over 1,000 TexasDem69 Jan 2024 #98

Apparently they should do nothing. Remember, as the title of the book says "people love dead jews." AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #103

They should pick off these underground Hamas scum one by one .....even if it takes decades and let them live their GuppyGal Jan 2024 #116

I'm glad you put the sarecasm there. Richard D Jan 2024 #118

The attack absolutely necessitated the response. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #101

22K dead according to WHOM? GuppyGal Jan 2024 #115

According to . . . Richard D Jan 2024 #169

No it isn't claudette Jan 2024 #132

Someday, maybe humans will decide to outlaw war. 1WorldHope Jan 2024 #85

Kellogg-Briand did that. It wasn't successful AZLD4Candidate Jan 2024 #104

Very interesting. I knew nothing of it, but if it was tried before and failed, 1WorldHope Jan 2024 #108

Russia agreed to leave Ukraine alone & look how that went. NT oldsoftie Jan 2024 #191

Laws without consequences and enforcement are suggestions TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #225

Regardless of Hamas' brutality, does it justify killing thousands of innocent Gaza Palastinians? elocs Jan 2024 #91

The need to obliterate the possibility of any repeat mandates the elimination of Hamas TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #105

So put the blame where it belongs; on those who started it. oldsoftie Jan 2024 #192

There is Hamas denialism in this thread. madaboutharry Jan 2024 #107

Hamas is to Gazans what Maga is to republicans MyMission Jan 2024 #130

No, not another OP; you should write that for The NY Times ! oldsoftie Jan 2024 #139

Yet many claudette Jan 2024 #131

no one pardons it, it's retaliation with the goal to eliminate hamas AlexSFCA Jan 2024 #133

Oh yes claudette Jan 2024 #134

First Willto Jan 2024 #142

You have it wrong Mossfern Jan 2024 #246

9,500 are Hamas deaths. madaboutharry Jan 2024 #141

Link ? For that hamas death's number questionseverything Jan 2024 #163

About as reliable as you believe Hamas' numbers to be. AloeVera Jan 2024 #179

So if the IDF gave a figure and Hamas gave a figure, which one would you put more credibility on? egduj Jan 2024 #182

I don't rely on either one, I'm inclined to do my own analysis and then make a determination. AloeVera Jan 2024 #183

Sometimes no answer is the clearest answer of all. egduj Jan 2024 #196

I saw one fact checker explaining the numbers and why they reported them AZSkiffyGeek Jan 2024 #207

Hamas' brutality is unpardonable Chainfire Jan 2024 #150

What would you have Israel do? egduj Jan 2024 #151

Adhere to international and humanitarian laws. AloeVera Jan 2024 #165

Absolutely not because doing so means a near complete inabilty TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #178

Trust me, people in Gaza don't live in the Land of Make Believe. They live the horror every moment. AloeVera Jan 2024 #185

Your questions are a refusal to take reality for an answer. TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #208

I don't think any of that was happening before 10/7... egduj Jan 2024 #180

So October 7th means all laws can now be flouted? AloeVera Jan 2024 #184

They are responding against this non-state actor, egduj Jan 2024 #195

Loud and clear. AloeVera Jan 2024 #206

No, it means that hopefully the IDF will mop up the Hamas shitstains and curb all of these Hamas lovers. SoFlaBro Jan 2024 #214

No idea who you mean by Hamas lovers nor do I care. AloeVera Jan 2024 #215

Nope. I just call balls and strikes. The Hamas supporters and Hamas lovers are very evident in their behavior. SoFlaBro Jan 2024 #226

You spelled CHILDREN wrong. N/T AloeVera Jan 2024 #228

Hamas's favorite business is dead Palestinian children and business is a-BOOMIN' :nuke: SoFlaBro Jan 2024 #237

Hamas is funtioning as a state actor. They are what passes for the legitimate TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #236

Estimates of civilian deaths between Iraq and Afghanistan runs upwards of 423K Kennah Jan 2024 #213

Absolutely 100% this Orrex Jan 2024 #216

And probably the US moreso Kennah Jan 2024 #220

Sunday morning kick. revmclaren Jan 2024 #221

We agree that the Hamas brutality is unpardonable, what is in dispute is whether Israel's brutality is acceptable. Chainfire Jan 2024 #229

You should be less stingy about waiving your magic wand TheKentuckian Jan 2024 #243

My big problem is my inability to ignore the suffering of other human beings. So sue me... Chainfire Jan 2024 #244

And Hamas vows to continue its terrorism. keithbvadu2 Jan 2024 #234

Monday morning Kick. revmclaren Jan 2024 #252

13 women remain in Hamas captivity. LetMyPeopleVote Jan 2024 #254

I hope they are able to come home. revmclaren Jan 2024 #258

Tuesday morning Kick. revmclaren Jan 2024 #257