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cab67

(3,618 posts)
58. Brazilian scientists take a very dim view of colonialist attitudes.
Wed Dec 17, 2025, 01:33 PM
Wednesday

This comes up in my own field because it's illegal to export fossils out of the country that weren't collected before some point in the 1940's. But illegally shipped fossils still show up in rock shops and, from time to time, museum collections outside of South America.

One case in particular comes to mind. A group of European and American paleontologists described what they thought might be a very primitive kind of snake with all four limbs. We already knew of snakes with hindlimbs - Haasiophis and Pachyophis from Israel come to mind - but all four? This was new. It was from Brazil.

There were all kinds of ethical issues with the study. The specimen was in a private collection on loan to a museum, for example. That's generally a no-no; if a specimen doesn't have a catalog number from a recognized public-trust institution, journals typically won't consider manuscripts including them for peer review. No one was willing to explain how the specimen got from Brazil to Germany. Worse, the paper was written without the input of any Brazilian scientists - and there are several Brazilian experts on snake evolution and fossil reptiles.

And because of the way it was acquired, information was lost. We didn't know where, exactly, it was from - we could tell it came from a particular region in Brazil known for fossils, but without knowing the precise locality, our understanding of its precise age and paleoenvironment are limited.

That the specimen later proved to be a different kind of reptile distantly related to lizards, and not a snake at all, added to the confusion. And when that was revealed, the specimen's owner took offense and retrieved it. Now, it's no longer available for direct study. (This is one of the reasons it's considered unethical to work on specimens in private collections.)

A lot of my Brazilian colleagues wrote extensively about this case. There are perfectly good museums in Brazil, there are perfectly qualified Brazilian scientists who could have collaborated on the project, and we have no idea whether it was legally shipped out of the country. This struck many of them as coming from the kind of attitude that allowed European colonial powers (as well as the US) to strip their overseas possessions (and even places they didn't control) of their natural and cultural patrimony. I think they're right.

To this day, if I want to look at crocodile remains (modern or fossil) from Africa, I don't inly go Nairobi, Addis Ababa, or Dar es Salaam. I also go to London, Paris, and other Western cities. Whether they should all be repatriated is not a simple thing, but it's a legitimate discussion to undertake.

I occasionally have people bring me things they bought at a rock show, or maybe even at an outdoor market in Brazil. They ask if we're willing to accept it as a donation for our paleo collections. I have to respond that we can't touch it - it would be way too ethically problematic. I won't report these people or anything - they genuinely didn't know there might be a law against buying such fossils, and so far, none of the specimens I've been shown has been anything other than a well-known species - but if they hoped they could write a donation off on their taxes, they're disappointed.

Recommendations

1 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Why was he even talking about Peruvian vipers in the first place? Ocelot II Tuesday #1
Think of his cabinet, perhaps? SheltieLover Tuesday #3
Professional courtesy? Jerry2144 Tuesday #4
Vipers, maybe, but why Peruvian vipers? Who's talking about Peru at all? Ocelot II Tuesday #5
Confused w/Venezuela ? Not at all beyond possibility -- in fact, quite probable. eppur_se_muova Tuesday #7
He was evidently discussing someone in the room. cab67 Tuesday #14
No viper would tolerate such a comparison. cab67 Tuesday #12
He surrounds himself with them. Why wouldn't he talk about them? jmowreader Tuesday #10
No, he doesn't. cab67 Tuesday #13
This story had the victim escorting BidenRocks Tuesday #35
He murdered Truth about 10 years ago. maxsolomon Tuesday #2
Reagan was notorious... GiqueCee Tuesday #6
"To the people of Bolivia, or someplace like that." eppur_se_muova Tuesday #8
And to Brazilians no less! peppertree Tuesday #28
"Snoozalini" -- Bwaah! Pinback Wednesday #55
Why, thank you. peppertree Wednesday #56
Brazilian scientists take a very dim view of colonialist attitudes. cab67 Wednesday #58
True. 'Colonialist attitude' is the GOPee's middle name. peppertree Wednesday #63
Things just pop in his head and then leak out of his mouth PatSeg Tuesday #9
Only about one-half. The others end up in his Depends. erronis Tuesday #11
Ha, ha, yeah I think you're right PatSeg Tuesday #30
Fun fact: There are no poisonous snakes. markodochartaigh Tuesday #15
My daughter knows this. cab67 Tuesday #22
About half of the adults that markodochartaigh Tuesday #25
and I'm willing to bet about half of those don't understand the explanation. cab67 Tuesday #31
Have you ever bitten a snake? IronLionZion Tuesday #24
I've never had a reason to bite one. cab67 Tuesday #34
This is arguable since there are snakes that have a good chance of being poisonous. PurgedVoter Wednesday #53
We saw a Fer de Lance in Costa Rica obamanut2012 Tuesday #16
very lucky! cab67 Tuesday #21
The point is to be very afraid of anyone brown or black IronLionZion Tuesday #17
Those are gorgeous snakes. cab67 Tuesday #19
The president need not be a trained herpetologist shakeyslim Tuesday #18
That is 10 over the span of 2000-2015 relayerbob Tuesday #20
no, it's ten per year. cab67 Tuesday #23
What do you expect from a demented, senile IMBECILE? AZ8theist Tuesday #26
Thank you SuzyandPuffpuff Tuesday #27
Snakes on the brain. SusieCreamcheese Tuesday #29
It's the snakes that fall out of trees that scare the bejesus out of me FakeNoose Tuesday #32
True story - cab67 Tuesday #36
The Confabulator in Chief is hemorrhaging brain cells Hassler Tuesday #33
Not only 10 people but 10 people over 15 years nt Javaman Tuesday #37
pretty sure it's ten per year cab67 Tuesday #38
I have to find the article Javaman Tuesday #39
I might be wrong as well. cab67 Tuesday #46
Yup you're right. Javaman Tuesday #40
I appreciate the fact check. cab67 Tuesday #47
When we were going to Costa Rica to zipline, tavernier Tuesday #41
I encountered driver ants in Kenya this past summer. cab67 Tuesday #43
Mr eyelash was especially interesting since it had wrapped itself tavernier Tuesday #48
I have seen a fer-de-lance in Costa Rica. My gardener killed one 2 weeks ago and brought to the house to show me! sinkingfeeling Tuesday #42
why did he kill it? cab67 Tuesday #45
He said it started to flee when he encountered it within 20 feet of my pool, but then sinkingfeeling Wednesday #50
I talked about this in a previous post Wiz Imp Tuesday #44
His brain is undergoing frontotemporal dementia - on top of the malignant narcissistic personality disorder summer_in_TX Tuesday #49
"besides, its the coastal taipan" got my ho ho ho this morning. rampartd Wednesday #51
most blather out of oompa's hamburger hole is bullshit. if he was poor at a bar, he's be a crank. pansypoo53219 Wednesday #52
My takeaway is that Trump is afraid of a lot of things. yardwork Wednesday #54
It's so refreshing to listen to real expertise on this MadameButterfly Wednesday #57
Sorry if this has already been addressed. But I learned ages ago that a viper is a general term for many snakes. efhmc Wednesday #59
Coral snakes (which occur in Texas) aren't true vipers. cab67 Wednesday #60
If a viper bit tRUMP Conjuay Wednesday #61
Why would a snake be interested in Twinklesphincter? cab67 Wednesday #62
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