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Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)

35. Of course they don't consent to being mugged or robbed, either.

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:11 AM

Mar 2013

That's ridiculous, but here's the difference: if a wealthy man in a fancy suit and waving around a wad of bills gets drunk out of his mind at a bar, and then staggers off down the street, where he is set upon by a gang of ruffians and beaten and robbed, everyone will tell him he was stupid - but no one will let the muggers go free because he was too stupid to follow simple safety guidelines.

If a woman gets drunk out of her mind (or roofied) and passes out, the man who rapes her will claim that she consented simply because she showed up, and therefore he should be set free. And quite often he is. It's already happening in the Steubenville case, where the victim was CLEARLY unable to consent, and yet the defense lawyers are insisting that she did. We even had a poster right here on DU state that she has a "past" and therefore it's going to be hard to get a conviction. Imagine that, if you will - a 16-year old girl has a "past", and therefore the chips will fall where they may. Too bad for her, she shouldn't have left her house and allowed herself to be roofied. We all know girls with a "past" will do these things. Sarcasm.

I don't know if people get the full scope of how maddening this is, so telling women to observe simple safety tips as if that'll solve the problem is just so fucking tiring.

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Something I find troubling in the rape prevention discussion at DU [View all] arely staircase Mar 2013 OP

OMFG. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #1

you couldn't pick one of the options? snooper2 Mar 2013 #6

What men think of as crime prevention is vastly different than what geek tragedy Mar 2013 #20

Women don't need the advice Bay Boy Mar 2013 #21

Teen boys and teen girls both need that advice--that's general geek tragedy Mar 2013 #25

Teenage girls are well aware of the potential sufrommich Mar 2013 #33

And some older women as well pipi_k Mar 2013 #41

I didn't know you and Egalitarian were one in the same... snooper2 Mar 2013 #28

We seem to have a wide range of issues we agree on as well as more than a couple Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #170

i think the problem is the implication tha results from not fully explaining the context as you did. unblock Mar 2013 #2

yesterday arely staircase Mar 2013 #10

Why do you suppose it's only men victimizing women--i.e. not geek tragedy Mar 2013 #13

i think many (weirdo hackers) do grow up in a vaccuum arely staircase Mar 2013 #15

Many women grow up in the same vacuum. Why aren't they geek tragedy Mar 2013 #16

Because men and women are different... Bay Boy Mar 2013 #24

We're talking about sexual predators exercising power and dominance geek tragedy Mar 2013 #29

You asked: Bay Boy Mar 2013 #51

You're agreeing with the rape culture argument. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #54

erm some of them are. loli phabay Mar 2013 #26

Erm, someone (i.e. you) didn't read the article in question. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #36

How unfortunate for you that this isn't the only article on the subject on the internet mythology Mar 2013 #152

Really? HangOnKids Mar 2013 #50

It's the standard MRA argument--any time a discussion geek tragedy Mar 2013 #57

Let's see if loli answers n/t HangOnKids Mar 2013 #64

Signal has gone up to the Bat Cave. nt geek tragedy Mar 2013 #70

Have I told you lately BainsBane Mar 2013 #96

That sounds like the Anderson Cooper line: but, but, both sides do it! Whisp Mar 2013 #141

a) because you're a bad person by virtue of being a man. Is that the answer you were looking for? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #129

You just ignored the context AGAIN when it was pointed out to you... bettyellen Mar 2013 #110

Sadly, my automatically assume negative intent joeglow3 Mar 2013 #93

if you want to avoid listeners making unfortunate assumptions, you have to lay the context carefully unblock Mar 2013 #133

What rubs people the wrong way gollygee Mar 2013 #136

Honestly, there is probably little discussion because ALL rational people agree it is wrong joeglow3 Mar 2013 #143

Car theft isn't tied in with shame on a cultural level or used as an instrument of control Recursion Mar 2013 #3

while true, that in no way makes rape prevention advice any less valuable arely staircase Mar 2013 #11

maybe women need alarms for their privates! boston bean Mar 2013 #169

You are oversimplifying this. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #4

Also, most robberies and muggings aren't from coworkers or dates. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #9

Excellent points, as usual. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #12

People don't consent to having their car stolen or getting beaten up Recursion Mar 2013 #14

people don't consent to let others use their cars? really? arely staircase Mar 2013 #18

this is a bit fatuous. most car theives are not acquaintances claiming they thought they had consent unblock Mar 2013 #23

i was responding to the comment that arely staircase Mar 2013 #32

this really adds nothing to your previous post. unblock Mar 2013 #43

Actually there are some grey areas around car theft from known parties Recursion Mar 2013 #55

consent makes it not car theft, not rape, etc. arely staircase Mar 2013 #104

Of course they don't consent to being mugged or robbed, either. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #35

"he didn't say 'you can't have my money'" geek tragedy Mar 2013 #46

Yes - he didn't clearly refuse to hand over his money, Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #56

part of it is that education of the would-be criminal is likely to be more effective for this crime. unblock Mar 2013 #22

I'm pretty sure that all men are taught not to rape. Xithras Mar 2013 #27

Men are not all taught what "rape" is, though Recursion Mar 2013 #31

That's the trouble pipi_k Mar 2013 #65

I don't know that it's a pathology; it's just what men (and women, for that matter) are taught Recursion Mar 2013 #68

I believe we on DU had a poster who wrote an OP to the effect of... LanternWaste Mar 2013 #77

Exactly, and that demonstrates why education is necessary BainsBane Mar 2013 #94

now THAT i believe has potential as a public awareness campaign directed at changing attitudes arely staircase Mar 2013 #105

That's a joke, right? redqueen Mar 2013 #106

notwithstanding any two cases arely staircase Mar 2013 #111

In going to disagree and say we need both... bettyellen Mar 2013 #116

As long as cops and judges, both male and female, have internalized patriarchal beliefs, redqueen Mar 2013 #118

Oh agreed, totally. bettyellen Mar 2013 #146

No, it wasn't a joke; it was a thoughtful, sincere response intended to engage in -- pacalo Mar 2013 #173

I just don't see why it has to be one or the other... Melon_Lord Mar 2013 #108

Have you seen the posters from the Edmonton AB "Don't Be That Guy" poster campaign? Hestia Mar 2013 #166

It would be nice pipi_k Mar 2013 #53

People say "it's power, not sex" as if those two things are easily distinguished Recursion Mar 2013 #59

Well you have pipi_k Mar 2013 #67

Absolutely BainsBane Mar 2013 #90

the actions of others often very much play a role in the prosecution of other crimes arely staircase Mar 2013 #100

Your niece doesn't need to be told sufrommich Mar 2013 #5

advice about how to "stay safe"…. if it's a boyfriend who turns out to be abusive… advice is useless KittyWampus Mar 2013 #7

so advice to prevent stranger rape is therefore uneeded? bad? arely staircase Mar 2013 #19

It's like focusing on random mass shootings. Possibly useful, but completely irrelevant... Recursion Mar 2013 #30

except for the fact that advice to prevent stranger rape arely staircase Mar 2013 #37

no not really arely staircase Mar 2013 #44

It's an artifact of rape culture to believe that women can prevent most rapes. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #8

+1 Little Star Mar 2013 #17

+2 JustAnotherGen Mar 2013 #39

That boggles my mind. LanternWaste Mar 2013 #128

glad you asked arely staircase Mar 2013 #42

And the point goes straight over the person's head. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #45

parenting arely staircase Mar 2013 #47

It goes beyond parenting, though. Why does NY state have geek tragedy Mar 2013 #49

That's one thing I didn't like about "No means no" Recursion Mar 2013 #61

i think ny state's message to potential rapists is expressed in its penal code arely staircase Mar 2013 #72

Why does it have to be either/or joeglow3 Mar 2013 #95

What if it JustAnotherGen Mar 2013 #107

unfortunately, incestual rape arely staircase Mar 2013 #112

According to that list gollygee Mar 2013 #119

Great post... redqueen Mar 2013 #121

i don't see "never drink" on that list arely staircase Mar 2013 #125

I assume you aren't intentionally missing the point gollygee Mar 2013 #132

the existence of sexual predators clearly imposes an unfair burden on women in that regard arely staircase Mar 2013 #135

I'm still not making this clear gollygee Mar 2013 #137

i can't disagree with anything you have written arely staircase Mar 2013 #140

I don't know if lists are necessary gollygee Mar 2013 #142

well, the lists do point out the "spidey sense" arely staircase Mar 2013 #145

+ 6.023x10^23 XRubicon Mar 2013 #155

Yeah, I truly don't pipi_k Mar 2013 #34

No one came close to saying it's a sufrommich Mar 2013 #38

The problem is the assumption that the solution to reducing rape geek tragedy Mar 2013 #40

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Mar 2013 #48

Are you for fucking real? You claim the problem is people geek tragedy Mar 2013 #52

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Mar 2013 #78

Appalling. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #60

Post removed Post removed Mar 2013 #69

I was attacked here for saying that I would warn my daughters about the existence of date-rape drugs Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #58

Do you have a link? Someone attacked you for sufrommich Mar 2013 #63

I've seen that exact thing here probably dozens of times Nevernose Mar 2013 #71

"Young adults need to be taught that no means no, that drunkeness does not equal consent, Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #75

Here's the thread. Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #74

what you and others endlessly refuse to accept even though it has been told repeatedly that makes seabeyond Mar 2013 #62

i don't think any reasonable person believes one can be completely safe from crime. accusing me of arely staircase Mar 2013 #81

again. you did not address what i actually said. that is where the issue seems to lie. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #98

well, thanks for clearing that up arely staircase Mar 2013 #101

What do I think? I think some of our feminists enjoy trolling Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #66

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Mar 2013 #73

i don't even think many of them are actually feminists - mostly datasuspect Mar 2013 #80

Shutting down Meta, with the never-ending stream of melodramatic denunciation threads, Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #85

This message was self-deleted by its author JTFrog Mar 2013 #97

I was thinking the same thing XRubicon Mar 2013 #154

Data hit the nail on the head Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #172

+10000 nt XRubicon Mar 2013 #153

Bad guys do bad things... Jeff In Milwaukee Mar 2013 #76

Sound advice. Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #82

good post arely staircase Mar 2013 #89

I'll be talking to my daughters about it, that's for sure. JoePhilly Mar 2013 #91

Done here. closeupready Mar 2013 #79

There is a difference between rape and car theft and no one needs to tell a woman she appleannie1 Mar 2013 #83

One issue seems to be prudence, while another issue seems to be rape. LanternWaste Mar 2013 #84

That's not rape prevention you're talking and is just general personal safety advice. Bradical79 Mar 2013 #86

no choices in this pole that have anything to do with the crux of the issue..... bettyellen Mar 2013 #87

because it leads to comments like this mercuryblues Mar 2013 #88

risk reduction on the part of a potential victim arely staircase Mar 2013 #92

I believe that mercuryblues Mar 2013 #102

I've always been happy to know my little sister is a deadly weapon Exultant Democracy Mar 2013 #99

impressive arely staircase Mar 2013 #103

There is a big difference between going to a victim Exultant Democracy Mar 2013 #109

I have a friend who's a black belt and extremely tough bettyellen Mar 2013 #114

The rape prevention movement is misguided. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #113

Disagree with "start" lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #115

Teaching women to fight back does not lower the incidence of attempted rape Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #117

Okay, then let's explore the question of what causes rape. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #120

You can alter social attitudes through education. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #122

No, it makes perfect sense and is as simplified as I can make it. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #124

You seriously think you can reduce this entire issue to that argument? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #127

Weak. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #130

That raises more questions about your qualification to be a logic professor than his application... JVS Mar 2013 #147

That's easy: There is another reason for the decline in sexual assault. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #149

But those parameters were not chosen by him. They were set by the thread. JVS Mar 2013 #151

So your logical proposal is that neither education of boys nor of girls reduces rape. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #157

That's not my logical proposal at all. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #160

One more time around the mulberry bush. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #162

Stop twisting my words. I did not say educating women was a waste of time. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #163

So "misguided and ineffective" actions are not necessarily a waste of time? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #164

What? Go back and read what I wrote for Christ's sake. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #165

it is probably the result of educating both arely staircase Mar 2013 #123

Don't disagree. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #126

What about the men who protect women from rape/attack? RoccoR5955 Mar 2013 #131

Everyone drive safe tonight! LanternWaste Mar 2013 #134

I think the list would include a bunch of impractical "tips" gollygee Mar 2013 #138

Actually, I need to rephrase this gollygee Mar 2013 #167

Between "everyone drive safe tonight!" and "remember to wear your seat belt"... lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #156

Intent. Rex Mar 2013 #139

Encouraging potential victims to take crime prevention measures is: Zorra Mar 2013 #144

Anyone got a problem with this? Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #148

Wow, I didn't think there was that much straw in the whole country. (nt) Posteritatis Mar 2013 #150

I find this anti-rape ad troubling, do you? Or do you think it's 'helpful'? justiceischeap Mar 2013 #158

i would say it evokes many past (as in over the generations) arely staircase Mar 2013 #159

Did you happen to notice that the ad not only blames the victim justiceischeap Mar 2013 #161

I congratulate you Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #168

Your equivelancy of locking your car doors doesn't cut it lunatica Mar 2013 #171