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JVS

(61,935 posts)

116. Technically, WBC has a better claim on saying one has no choice.

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:44 PM

Mar 2013

Catholic teaching presents apostasy and excommunication as ways in which church members come and go. Priests regularly complain about how many people leave the church or seldom attend.

WBC being strictly Calvinist (although they likely pervert Calvinist though) would argue that those who are God's elect will naturally gravitate to them and those who want to leave are and were always faithless.

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On the attacks on the Catholic Church [View all] nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 OP

Thank you. shenmue Mar 2013 #1

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #2

I thank you also. n/t GP6971 Mar 2013 #3

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #4

Being a member or adherent of a religion is not a choice? Brickbat Mar 2013 #5

No kidding BellaLuna Mar 2013 #66

Evidently it's only a choice if one is an adherent of a smaller religious group. JVS Mar 2013 #96

Soooo much wrong with this OP zappaman Mar 2013 #100

I find the justifications from the OP throughout this thread bizarre. Brickbat Mar 2013 #120

Yep. This shit makes DU look stupid. jsr Mar 2013 #6

+1 Richardo Mar 2013 #16

"dickidness" - the perfect word Richardo Mar 2013 #7

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #8

Raised a Catholic, I had forgotten all the prejudice against me and my Cleita Mar 2013 #9

Yup that is part of it nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #11

I'm reading backwards on the posts so I life long demo Mar 2013 #10

In all seriousness the church needs a Vatican III. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #12

Me too. n/t Cleita Mar 2013 #13

Wait. Being Catholic isn't a choice? progressoid Mar 2013 #14

Like being born into any religion nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #15

When I became an adult I chose to no longer follow the faith of my parents. progressoid Mar 2013 #74

And that is a choice increasingly seen in the US nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #77

Many Protestants don't feel a particular attachment to their denomination pnwmom Mar 2013 #290

it most certainly IS a choice and you belittle the civil rights struggle Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #93

So we do not have a history of religious bigotry in the US? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #97

yes we have such a history and not just in the u.s. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #102

And attacks on DU'ers cause they happen to be catholic nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #104

ln plz Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #105

Bullshit zappaman Mar 2013 #109

and p.s.. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #108

Yes and. We are discussing one type of bigotry nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #110

my point is that one link does not an argument make Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #121

This does not support your assertion. zappaman Mar 2013 #126

hm. not sure if that was the link you meant to post. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #127

Same thread where I posted the links. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #129

After specifically pointing out to you Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #223

+100 zappaman Mar 2013 #229

You're not born into a religion. You're taught it. Brickbat Mar 2013 #106

If you are baptized when you are a week old, no it isn't. n/t Cleita Mar 2013 #21

But clearly a choice to continue being a member of whatever faith.. RedCappedBandit Mar 2013 #31

As long as you live in a Catholic family and go to Catholic school and Cleita Mar 2013 #32

That's just ridiculous. lbrtbell Mar 2013 #101

I never give them money. I think you are being very rude though. Cleita Mar 2013 #115

you are what is called a 'counter-example'. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #94

Not so easy to leave for everyone treestar Mar 2013 #255

nonsense. Bradical79 Mar 2013 #37

That's what the English thought BainsBane Mar 2013 #150

Thankfully, that is NOT what modern liberals think. progressoid Mar 2013 #154

Really? BainsBane Mar 2013 #156

Don't I what? progressoid Mar 2013 #164

You insist religion is a choice BainsBane Mar 2013 #170

Sure. Religion is a choice. progressoid Mar 2013 #174

This OP is an appeal not to be a jerk toward fellow DUers who are BainsBane Mar 2013 #188

Nope. progressoid Mar 2013 #192

Why? BainsBane Mar 2013 #194

It seemed like a poor way to make a point. progressoid Mar 2013 #198

As you admit to making no point BainsBane Mar 2013 #200

Then we shouldn't rant about the children born into the Westboro church of hate, Lars39 Mar 2013 #17

You are seriously comparing an organization of billions nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #18

You posit that anyone born into a religion has no choice. Lars39 Mar 2013 #19

I said you have no choice as to where you are born nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #20

I have not attacked anyone personally or as a group. Lars39 Mar 2013 #23

The church will probably break nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #24

No harm done. Lars39 Mar 2013 #26

Yup nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #28

Hopefully not. Lars39 Mar 2013 #29

just a nit, but there are 1.2B Catholics, not 2 billion or billions. nt magical thyme Mar 2013 #63

Nit well taken nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #75

Technically, WBC has a better claim on saying one has no choice. JVS Mar 2013 #116

Ah. So you are saying that the difference between the Pope and Fred Phelps is that the Pope Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #246

More chips, yay!!!! nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #253

Chances are big that there are abuse survivors here on DU Whisp Mar 2013 #22

us atheists are used to it. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #98

Much like the institution of adoption me b zola Mar 2013 #160

When liberals and democrats become bigoted Mosaic Mar 2013 #25

And baby Jesus was a circumcised little Jewish kid, I might remind you. Cleita Mar 2013 #27

Some individual Catholics are great. trotsky Mar 2013 #30

When you attack the church, that is one thing nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #34

Not calling them child molestors Lordquinton Mar 2013 #90

Given that as a JEW I am having a problem nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #95

I don't differentiate between the hierarchy and the orginization Lordquinton Mar 2013 #140

Chuckle, given what I wrote my masters thesis on nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #225

obvious bigotry Lordquinton Mar 2013 #284

Once again nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #285

Maybe you should get thicker glasses Lordquinton Mar 2013 #288

Now a personal attack nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #289

No, I am not, Lordquinton Mar 2013 #296

you still haven't provided a link Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #111

Cuz it never happened. zappaman Mar 2013 #118

iggy pop? my dad knew him as a kid. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #122

Read here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #124

Read there for what? zappaman Mar 2013 #128

sorry but i find nothing objectionable in any of those links Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #130

You are officially on the b list. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #138

whew! Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #141

Congrats! zappaman Mar 2013 #146

is it going to be formal attire or casual? Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #151

Could you link to the post where people were told, specifically, trotsky Mar 2013 #112

Let me look for it. It was posted by another poster nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #119

More bullshit zappaman Mar 2013 #123

I don't see where all Catholics were called child molesters in those posts. trotsky Mar 2013 #152

You are correct. zappaman Mar 2013 #155

Read the OP. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #158

There are such posts treestar Mar 2013 #254

OK, point to them. trotsky Mar 2013 #257

Any DUer of any term in good faith treestar Mar 2013 #258

When someone makes a claim, I believe they need to support it. trotsky Mar 2013 #259

Everybody knows that sentiment is often expressed on DU treestar Mar 2013 #260

"expressing a sentiment" requires personal interpretation. trotsky Mar 2013 #261

Are you really claiming that no one has ever posted to the effect that treestar Mar 2013 #264

What I'm saying is that I have seen no one claim that all Catholics are pedophiles. trotsky Mar 2013 #265

I am truly interested Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #159

You think you will get an answer? zappaman Mar 2013 #177

Not likely. Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #180

Don't forget the self delete! zappaman Mar 2013 #182

Well, you called it! Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #235

I'm gobsmacked! zappaman Mar 2013 #263

... Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #270

Seriously??? behrstar Mar 2013 #33

Given I am a Jew you might want to understand, or not, nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #35

I am Jewish too behrstar Mar 2013 #39

I am talking of hate of members of the church nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #40

When people say "fuck the Catholic Church" they are referring to the institution. Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #212

It absolutely IS a choice. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #36

The attacks have been personal nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #38

So... behrstar Mar 2013 #42

They are based on dogma nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #44

So you believe behrstar Mar 2013 #46

It is what it is. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #51

Isnt that a double standard by catholics? Bradical79 Mar 2013 #53

Attacking evangelicals is also off nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #59

+1 Apophis Mar 2013 #49

Wow. I am so glad you judge others with such razor sharp clarity. Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #60

Shall we not criticize someone who chooses to be a member NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #79

Your not consistent. Mixing Religious and political affiliations. Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #117

I am consistent. Joining a political party is a choice, NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #125

Whatever you say. You obviously have much deeper insights than the rest of us. A searing intellect Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #132

It takes no great insight to realize NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #135

Truly profound statements...I glad you came up with a rationale. Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #137

Thanks but they are not profound at all. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #139

Snicker...if you say so... :) Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #142

Yep. I already did say so. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #236

A searing intellect of a searing 60 watt light bulb, along with an ego the size of Mt Rushmore. Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #243

And you have no argument at all. Try harder. n/t D23MIURG23 Mar 2013 #228

Practically everyone treestar Mar 2013 #256

+1 D23MIURG23 Mar 2013 #227

Well spoken! Katashi_itto Mar 2013 #41

It would be like attacking people who attend Penn State treestar Mar 2013 #43

Exactly nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #45

not really. Bradical79 Mar 2013 #57

Except being a Catholic IS a choice. Apophis Mar 2013 #47

Because the laity has been trying to so something about it nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #89

Giving money to the churches is showing the church leaders Apophis Mar 2013 #184

The Church says my family is the work of Satan. I am going to criticize the fuck out of such Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #48

Be as critical of the church as you want nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #56

Excuse me, but I have never said any such thing. I do not need any lecturing either. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #244

Give me a direct quote nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #251

"Excuse me, but I have never said any such thing." zappaman Mar 2013 #262

+1, my friend. Evoman Mar 2013 #214

And that poster did not respond to the points I made nor the questions I asked, but instead Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #248

Respectful response and replies to questions? Brickbat Mar 2013 #250

I'm Catholic, was born one, and will die one. Lobo27 Mar 2013 #50

And as a catholic you know of the tension, ever present nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #58

Hallelujah and amen. nolabear Mar 2013 #52

I was raised a Catholic. I don't attend Mass very often, Autumn Mar 2013 #54

If you march in the parade with NAMBLA behrstar Mar 2013 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author Jerry442 Mar 2013 #64

You give your money to RCC, you friggin well know some of it would be spent on covering idwiyo Mar 2013 #61

Not the whole truth, though union_maid Mar 2013 #181

"It could help someone" is not the same as it WILL harm a hell of a lot of people. Including that idwiyo Mar 2013 #216

It's pretty much the same union_maid Mar 2013 #220

That's like a battered wife syndrome at its worst: "but he isn't like that all the time!" idwiyo Mar 2013 #237

OK,you're entitled to your opinion on that union_maid Mar 2013 #238

Actually I am trying to figure what is your argument? Is it RCC does some nice things too so it's idwiyo Mar 2013 #240

Not exactly union_maid Mar 2013 #242

Sorry if this seems a bit devil's advocate... but... nightscanner59 Mar 2013 #62

Perhaps behrstar Mar 2013 #67

You might want to read the book of Joshua nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #81

All religions have done that. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #72

"All religions have done that" is NOT an excuse for this particular one or for any of them. idwiyo Mar 2013 #239

Good bye nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #276

You mean your famous ignore list? I am honoured. idwiyo Mar 2013 #291

Welcome to the list! zappaman Mar 2013 #277

I don't think she actually has one. But I am honoured. Kind of got tired of BS in this OP. idwiyo Mar 2013 #292

You kidding? zappaman Mar 2013 #293

There are not enough active posters to fill ignore list with hundreds of people. idwiyo Mar 2013 #295

Thank you. 840high Mar 2013 #65

Hold on here. religion is choice, it is not race... Bennyboy Mar 2013 #68

Exactly. behrstar Mar 2013 #69

Yup, why Jews were slaughtered since it was a choice. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #71

So I googled "american laity of catholic church reforms child abuse" Bennyboy Mar 2013 #80

I sure realize you missed the NPR interviews, CNN and MSNBC nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #82

If you endorse what the hierarchy is doing, keep supporting them. If you don't -- don't. nt Jerry442 Mar 2013 #70

That is independent from telling DU'ers here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #85

"telling DU'ers here...That they are child molesters since they happen to attend mass." zappaman Mar 2013 #87

It has never happened. The OP keeps claiming it but it's not true. Evoman Mar 2013 #215

Just another made up accusation michigandem58 Mar 2013 #268

Can you please post a link to the tread where someone was called a child molester for going to the idwiyo Mar 2013 #241

Sorry, but it is. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #252

So, where is the link? idwiyo Mar 2013 #294

I've decided to convert to Catholicism for one day. The reason? Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #73

Oh, good, another condescending post from you letting us know what we can and can't say Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #76

Thank you, I just love the passive agressive nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #78

'I just live the passive agressive" zappaman Mar 2013 #83

Fuckin' ay Evoman Mar 2013 #217

The homily today included not throwing stones at pedophiles. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #84

And why I said, lay off the personal attacks on DU'ers nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #86

In the church I work at there is a constant stream of "abortion is murder" and now this "don't throw SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #197

Agreed, it has to come from the congregations. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #201

I worked at the church for 6 months where the Domenicans got in big time pedophile trouble. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #210

I had philosophical discussions nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #213

The Catholic church facilitated child rape michigandem58 Mar 2013 #88

It is those same progressives getting attacked here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #103

No, that was victims filing lawsuits michigandem58 Mar 2013 #144

And they were not part of the laity? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #145

Huh? zappaman Mar 2013 #147

"And they were not part of the laity?" michigandem58 Mar 2013 #163

As if any of the Op does... zappaman Mar 2013 #167

Christ, are you that obtuse? michigandem58 Mar 2013 #153

No, I am not that obtuse nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #157

You mean "easy peasy" not "easy peachy" zappaman Mar 2013 #161

I know I'm getting nuanced here, but.. michigandem58 Mar 2013 #171

Have a good one nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #173

The book you linked was written by a contributing editor for The American Conservative. michigandem58 Mar 2013 #203

I am as well, but will not stand for bigoted attacks nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #205

"Nuance is missing here." zappaman Mar 2013 #206

Calling out the church for its heinous crimes is not bigotry lbrtbell Mar 2013 #91

"Calling out the church for its heinous crimes is not bigotry" zappaman Mar 2013 #92

Calling individual members is nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #99

Never forget the 300,000 babies stolen from their parents by the RCC in Spain (under Franco) Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #107

So we are clear nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #112

Membership in the RCC certainly does not make one a child molester. Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #131

But no one has said it! zappaman Mar 2013 #133

Here, a series of bad posts. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #134

These links do not support your assertion. zappaman Mar 2013 #136

I posted in that thread to offer a comparison to the sort of post LGBT people endure on DU Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #249

You do know that many LGBT have left DU nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #273

apparently that post is really well hidden, no one can find anything like it. n/t Whisp Mar 2013 #165

+infinity Apophis Mar 2013 #185

Im not Catholic but my wife is. DCBob Mar 2013 #143

When I was a homeless youth, nightscanner59 Mar 2013 #148

You might want to go to a few Catholic Churches in Mexico nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #168

Nice post MFrohike Mar 2013 #149

Thumbs up nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #162

100% bullshit. cleanhippie Mar 2013 #166

+1 Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #169

+100 zappaman Mar 2013 #172

Exactly. Apophis Mar 2013 #186

Right. So the Bishops will get right on it. Should take oh, a couple hundred years MichiganVote Mar 2013 #175

Only one thing to say nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #176

Sorry, I don't buy it. I am familiar with the ideas but frankly, MichiganVote Mar 2013 #179

So I guess we can ignore a long history of religious wars. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #183

Well you can ignore whatever you like, or not. For my money I cannot and will not MichiganVote Mar 2013 #190

Alas you never read the OP nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #207

Anyone who calls themselves a Catholic/has been baptized is a member of the church. MichiganVote Mar 2013 #269

This s what s hilarious of the assumption you are making nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #271

"We all have a fantastic imagination." zappaman Mar 2013 #202

knr Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #178

What a steaming pile of bullshit...FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH truebrit71 Mar 2013 #187

Thank you for the shining example nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #189

Welcome! truebrit71 Mar 2013 #191

And it is those same progressive members of the laity that are demanding change nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #211

that money doesn't go to the Vatican BainsBane Mar 2013 #193

Post removed Post removed Mar 2013 #196

US Parishes donate about 28% of the 60-100 million dollars parishes sent to support the Vatican Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #247

I completely agree. Well said. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #195

Jeremiah Wright? His Trinity UCC church is inclusive of LBGT people. He does not stand up and Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #245

When I was 18, I converted to a religion that was right for me. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #199

I frankly do not read the I/P bard nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #208

I just think people struggle with their personal search for meaning and JDPriestly Mar 2013 #221

Agreed, a lot f it s about death. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #224

I'd prefer humans quit religion of all stripes... snooper2 Mar 2013 #204

I think it will happen in time. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #209

Oh, come on already! RoccoR5955 Mar 2013 #218

You surely have heard of...tolerance nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #219

This kind of bigotry has been going on murielm99 Mar 2013 #222

For some of us...this is on principe. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #226

Asking members to stop supporting an organization that promotes hate is not bigotry against them. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #230

"Who here has impugned all members of the Catholic faith?" zappaman Mar 2013 #231

You know what has happened to tithe in the first word? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #232

Much of that is due to the hierarchy dumping liabilities on parishes to cover their own butts. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #233

Why changes are coming nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #234

Actually yes, it is a choice ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #266

Shhhhhh! zappaman Mar 2013 #267

Thank you for posting this badtoworse Mar 2013 #272

In 2008, the Democratic Party's nominees for President and Vice President opposed gay marriage. BlueCheese Mar 2013 #274

I'd say that *only* individuals should be attacked. Orsino Mar 2013 #275

I've stayed out of these threads -- until now. Raine1967 Mar 2013 #278

I speak out because I know where that bigotry leads to as well nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #279

Thank you for understanding. Raine1967 Mar 2013 #286

I do, fully nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #287

It's all pretty confusing, who is doing this and why, because the RC church is being accused of BOTH patrice Mar 2013 #280

You are going to make me delve into all that!!!! nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #281

I have been reading most of the afternoon. LOTS of stuff going on! I kind of knew about it patrice Mar 2013 #282

Well...many years ago I was told a nice tidbit by a Jesuit nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #283