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caraher

(6,364 posts)

23. Analogies are never perfect

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 05:20 PM

Mar 2013

This one is no exception, but it's not one to dismiss out of hand.OK, it doesn't cost money to leave the RC church the way it does to move. So we exempt those who can't afford to emigrate from consideration.

That still leaves plenty of people who are critical of the US and have the means to leave. I think the "you can choose your religion but not your native country" argument is very weak - a fairer comparison is that you choose neither your native country nor the religious tradition you may have been brought up with.

And for those with strong religious beliefs, there is a very intense emotional attachment to a church, often stronger than the emotional attachment to a nation called "patriotism." Don't imagine for a moment that it's easy for a Catholic to leave the church on principle.

It's even hard for those who lack strong religious beliefs. Heck, I haven't really believed church doctrine for 30 years and don't really consider myself Catholic, but there's still a very strong emotional tug - I feel abandoned when I look at today's increasingly conservative church, yet a bit like a traitor for not being part of it and doing what I can to change it (despite an utter lack of belief in Christianity). And I'll always have a sense of right and wrong shaped by my upbringing in the church (12 years of Catholic school and weekly Mass).

I respect every individual decision on this, whether it's to turn their back on the Church or remain and try to force it to live up to its best ideals. We need the likes of Sr. Simone Campbell out there!

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] Fresh_Start Mar 2013 OP

Stupid analogy is stupid... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #1

So financial sacrifice is too big... Fresh_Start Mar 2013 #2

Leaving the country is a big emotional sacrifice, social/family JanMichael Mar 2013 #8

I made no such sacrifice in leaving the Catholic Church ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #82

So you bash others for not making the same choice you did? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #3

I'm not even asking people to leave the church entirely, just don't financially support it... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #11

In case you have missed the news nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #49

Yes. It's none of your business. No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #74

Of course its my business, that money goes to support atrocious things and is used... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #77

By that reasoning it would be my business No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #84

If I was putting money into a group to try to ban your religion it would be your business.nt Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #85

Are you doing that? Cleita Mar 2013 #159

When the RCC stops interfering with MY freedom of religion and speech and pursuit of happiness MNBrewer Mar 2013 #100

"No one here asks your approval to do anything." JVS Mar 2013 #203

Unfortunately, the shit they are flipping are to DUers who do not support the institution Cleita Mar 2013 #217

for nadinbrzezinski CountAllVotes Mar 2013 #28

Nobody's freedom of religion has been under threat here . . . markpkessinger Mar 2013 #83

You're own words have said it. Yes, it is under attack. Cleita Mar 2013 #119

The First Amendment preserves your right to practice whatever religion you want . . . markpkessinger Mar 2013 #156

Well, that will be hard for you considering I don't practice any religion. Cleita Mar 2013 #157

I'm not calling anybody out . . . markpkessinger Mar 2013 #166

Do you acknowledge that women and gays are under attack by the Church? Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #171

The Opus Dei followers are. Cleita Mar 2013 #184

This is my guide in some ways nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #167

So the Catholic Church comes after women and gays and, what, we're supposed to remain silent? Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #177

And I will join you in being critical of the *HIERARCHY* every day of the week nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #181

I have criticized the church hierarchy & its policies, and so have 99 percent of anti-Church DUers. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #183

Take it with the administrators nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #186

Yeah. Vatican II was 50 years ago. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #189

You seem incapable of understanding where that came from nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #190

Catholic Church hierarchy bigots who repress women and gays = a-okay. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #191

Simplistic. aquart Mar 2013 #205

This message was self-deleted by its author Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #226

Niemoller was chastising German citizens for blithely standing by, not speaking out riderinthestorm Mar 2013 #187

Yep. aquart Mar 2013 #204

Same OP said I don't belong on DU because I don't share the same religious views Cleita Mar 2013 #42

No its because you defend the homophobic bigotry of the Church and are dismissive... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #50

When did I defend that? Cleita Mar 2013 #51

In the thread you started. Especially liked the dismissal of LGBT suicides as "that's life". Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #55

I didn't dismiss a LGBT suicide. You said it was because of Mormons. I dismissed your Cleita Mar 2013 #61

You also said made mention of lifestyles and choices. Keep digging that hole. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #62

You made the claim that the church is not anti gay and that it is not mistreatment of gay people to Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #168

Which OP?? JanMichael Mar 2013 #86

I guess unless you can't follow posts and replies to them. Cleita Mar 2013 #90

oh cut it out, you have "known" me as long as I have JanMichael Mar 2013 #94

I didn't call you a Catholic basher. I was answering Nadine's post about another Cleita Mar 2013 #101

I know JanMichael Mar 2013 #106

Yet, an unusually high percentage of the clergy are gay and openly so. Cleita Mar 2013 #108

"The Catholic Church isn't always kind to anyone's civil rights." JanMichael Mar 2013 #109

Yes, but why dismiss every Catholic and every good thing they did because there Cleita Mar 2013 #116

I never have. Most DUers have not JanMichael Mar 2013 #121

Here's the difference. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #172

Aww, you are shocked that LGBT people aren't kind to a homophobic organization that tries to... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #110

I have never known a Catholic to be openly hostile to gays, ever. Cleita Mar 2013 #114

I have, and on more than one occasion. MineralMan Mar 2013 #120

That's ok, according to Cleita, gays don't commit suicide due to societal pressure from churches... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #129

You know if you are going to repeat what I say, let me make a suggestion. Cleita Mar 2013 #153

OK, though I already pasted it elsewhere... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #202

Did you tell them to cut it out? Or did you sit back and say nothing? Cleita Mar 2013 #137

I did tell that person, yes. MineralMan Mar 2013 #139

No, but good on you. Cleita Mar 2013 #143

He got many such letters. MineralMan Mar 2013 #149

That I didn't miss, but Catholics weren't the only ones. Cleita Mar 2013 #151

"Everybody's Doing It" is not an excuse. MineralMan Mar 2013 #209

Now I'm a child? Cleita Mar 2013 #214

Oh, dear. I did not call you a child. MineralMan Mar 2013 #215

Oh, don't try to wriggle out of it. A child makes a childish argument. Cleita Mar 2013 #219

I'm done with this subthread. MineralMan Mar 2013 #220

Lots of Americans hated Gays, not just religious Americans. But those of us who learned at an sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #213

I have JanMichael Mar 2013 #132

I never have, but then I avoid people who have displayed open Cleita Mar 2013 #135

My wife bartended JanMichael Mar 2013 #141

It's too bad she had to put up with that crap from the boss. Cleita Mar 2013 #147

Hard to avoid your own mom like in my case.... nt riderinthestorm Mar 2013 #146

I had toxic relatives too. Fortunately, I outlived them all. n/t Cleita Mar 2013 #148

If that happened the church would lose a power and influence ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #89

Lacking understanding of what that schism would bring I see. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #134

I can guarantee you the US would not have a civil war over this ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #136

You think the world is limited to the United States? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #138

What country would? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #142

Son...you really are blind if you think a schism nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #145

Why are you so insulting? zappaman Mar 2013 #150

Nadin, you are terrific! When I read some of these posts, I corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #161

Myself I think we are back 50 years. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #162

"...so really, just shut up about it." WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #5

Then you just illustrate your ignorance on the subject then. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #18

You are correct. earthside Mar 2013 #15

Exactly, we bash those who financially support many organizations that are bigoted... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #19

Why do you bash? No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #87

Are you fucking kidding me? Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #91

I return hours later (doing taxes, visiting with family, watching TV) No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #195

I apologize for the insult. It was largely uncalled for. Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #201

Apparently according to him, yes. Cleita Mar 2013 #163

"What gives you the right to decide other peoples choices?" Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #175

Pretty much Johonny Mar 2013 #39

Telling another member of this site to shut up is not appropriate. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #52

stupid analogy IS stupid.. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #81

Stupid retort is intellectually dishonest. DirkGently Mar 2013 #154

That's just an excuse. Millions of people with few resources leave their countries sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #212

What is Catholic bashing? upaloopa Mar 2013 #4

No, telling all Catholics they're supporting child rape is Catholic bashing. DirkGently Mar 2013 #155

There are very few bashers of Catholics on DU. MineralMan Mar 2013 #6

Thank you JanMichael Mar 2013 #12

+1000. nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #40

That is simply not true - DU has been laden with posts calling Catholic laity "enablers of child Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #57

The people you mention are few. MineralMan Mar 2013 #75

Well, there's one posting immediately below you... N.T... Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #197

Yes, I see that. One does not make a crowd. MineralMan Mar 2013 #208

Every time you put a dollar in the collection plate, you're bankrolling hate. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #160

CORRECT!!!! Skittles Mar 2013 #60

There are more than enough. cordelia Mar 2013 #123

I used that verse to illustrate why I MineralMan Mar 2013 #128

What recourse do Catholics have to change the church from inside? LAGC Mar 2013 #7

There is none, which is why the whole thing is a nonsense excuse Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #35

There is recourse apparently. There was a liberal priest Cleita Mar 2013 #43

If that were true, the Church would have changed their doctrine regarding contraception. smokey nj Mar 2013 #63

how do they indicate they want things changed? RainDog Mar 2013 #68

The can do it at their parishes. Cleita Mar 2013 #71

Did you know collection plates are pretty empty these days? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #164

In the meantime they should stop trying to shove their medieval idiocy into U.S. public policy. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #174

If you don't fight for separation of Church and State and I am definitely into that, Cleita Mar 2013 #182

Let me ask this another way nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #158

Precisely HockeyMom Mar 2013 #206

On the saddest day of my life the catholic church was there in a totally useless way.I don't blame.. Tikki Mar 2013 #9

Thank you. Like all institutions, especially ones that have been around for a few millennia, Cleita Mar 2013 #10

That's all well and good, and I agree...but, I have seen very few JanMichael Mar 2013 #14

I was just told this afternoon that I don't belong on DU because apparently Cleita Mar 2013 #45

Read this sub-thread. hrmjustin Mar 2013 #54

Refusing to allow birth control is not a cause JanMichael Mar 2013 #59

This is where you are wrong. Catholics do allow family planning, not Cleita Mar 2013 #67

Vatican clarifies pope's condom comments: Nothing's changed RainDog Mar 2013 #70

But he didn't throw the whole concept out and say no condoms ever for anyone. Cleita Mar 2013 #72

Personally, they can say whatever they'd like RainDog Mar 2013 #78

I personally don't go near Church of any sort unless for a funeral or something like Cleita Mar 2013 #88

Yes. Bush began giving money to churches and Obama has continued that same group. RainDog Mar 2013 #99

I don't think Cleita or any DUers are "lying" on these issues JanMichael Mar 2013 #76

This was the statement that they had found an exception for condoms RainDog Mar 2013 #79

Cleita was lying about the Church not being bigoted. nt Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #93

Stop calling me a liar and all the other Cleita Mar 2013 #102

You are the one who defends the indefensible, I have a question, do you think being gay is a choice? Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #107

Two guys or girls forming a partnership and living together is a gay lifestyle Cleita Mar 2013 #111

Really? Then explain this post... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #117

What don't you understand? If you don't like the word then you are the jackass. Cleita Mar 2013 #131

That was a very sickening and insulting post, Cleita. I say that as a straight person. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #173

ugh Marrah_G Mar 2013 #221

The term gay lifestyle is deeply offensive. It is not a term used by gay people. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #169

I apologize to you but not to the guy who called me a jackass and said I don't belong on Cleita Mar 2013 #180

So you make this big fuss defending bigoted Catholics, and when called out on your own GLBT language riderinthestorm Mar 2013 #185

They are telling me that I'm not good enough for them because I refuse Cleita Mar 2013 #188

Your posts just leave me shaking my head Marrah_G Mar 2013 #223

Can I ask you something? sibelian Mar 2013 #199

No, just a friend to many gays who gets really pissed off at apologists for bigotry. n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #200

oh puhlease. what an inane and dishonest argument La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #13

It's an attack to make their own choices palpable. RainDog Mar 2013 #44

... La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #104

Plus one million. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #194

Horrible analogy... MellowDem Mar 2013 #16

The church is still waging war--on women and on gays, in modern times. Here you go: Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #17

But....But.... MellowDem Mar 2013 #20

There's even members who argue the church isn't bigoted! n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #21

Then they should become Episcopalians JanMichael Mar 2013 #24

As one of "The Frozen Chosen" or "Catholic Lite", I resemble that remark.... Rowdyboy Mar 2013 #58

+1 Yes, true BUT I was just told in another thread RCC is the biggest charity provider in US, idwiyo Mar 2013 #73

65% of the funds Catholic Charities uses comes from Federal Tax revenues, not the Church Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #170

Anyone that is calling Catholics defective as a group is a fool. bluestate10 Mar 2013 #22

I had to sit through a few wedding masses where I basically got called a helpmate Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #25

My reaction was different. Aren't the differences between people beautiful as long bluestate10 Mar 2013 #125

Let me ask you this. Are you a woman or a man? Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #130

A "helpmate"?! sibelian Mar 2013 #198

Basically, they mean "property." MineralMan Mar 2013 #224

Basically, as a woman, I'm an accessory to a man valuable only for my Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #225

Analogies are never perfect caraher Mar 2013 #23

Can you exempt those also who don't meet JanMichael Mar 2013 #26

I'll allow whatever you like caraher Mar 2013 #30

How did you decide that it's like "choosing coke or pepsi" for me? JanMichael Mar 2013 #34

You're right that I can't know that's what it's like for you caraher Mar 2013 #140

I also think I'm largely with you on Catholicism caraher Mar 2013 #33

Based on what? Unfamiliarity? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #152

Good question caraher Mar 2013 #207

Actually, leaving the Church doesn't even require THAT much effort. Nevernose Mar 2013 #64

Or belong to any of the other treestar Mar 2013 #27

... progressoid Mar 2013 #29

Can we agree that it's unacceptable to bash people for being Catholics but geek tragedy Mar 2013 #31

While I personally do not criticize individuals, this is a flawed distinction Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #37

this is flamebait, right from the "loaded premise" in the subject line Kolesar Mar 2013 #32

A better analogy would be the Republican Party. Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #36

I bash the hierarchy. Ichingcarpenter Mar 2013 #38

This paragraph describes "legacy Catholics," how the official numbers are inflated: UTUSN Mar 2013 #41

We want more XRubicon Mar 2013 #46

So, you don't like the legitimate and well-deserved criticism being handed out to the RCC.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #47

Nearly complete fail. False analogy and substance free. How about this, you go to your church and Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #48

I've long since left the Catholic Church, but strongly object to the tone of DU Fresh_Start Mar 2013 #53

I was ready to walk away from any more posts about this RainDog Mar 2013 #65

why did you leave the church ? 4 t 4 Mar 2013 #113

I left the church over its policies Fresh_Start Mar 2013 #228

Where's unrec when we need it? backscatter712 Mar 2013 #56

Wait...what? Apophis Mar 2013 #66

If one willingly belongs to a homophobic sexist organization, donating $$ and time riderinthestorm Mar 2013 #69

"willingly"?? DCBob Mar 2013 #96

Yes, I used that word "willingly" specifically. Of course one can leave any organization riderinthestorm Mar 2013 #144

I see. So, because they were raised in the church Zoeisright Mar 2013 #193

If I could save up the money to emigrate to Canada easily I would ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #80

How much do you need? No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #92

It is. You have to apply, have so much in savings JanMichael Mar 2013 #98

I doubt people who are making this claim RainDog Mar 2013 #105

One would think Americans, with all the "illegals" JanMichael Mar 2013 #115

There are points assigned for different things RainDog Mar 2013 #122

Depends on the Province JanMichael Mar 2013 #127

Yes. It is - the health care system. RainDog Mar 2013 #133

It's not like just moving to a neighboring state ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #103

For most countries I looked at in the past RainDog Mar 2013 #112

We run into ex-Catholics JanMichael Mar 2013 #118

Yeah I know plenty at my church too ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #124

Leave it to someone who belongs to the church that espouses gay hatred and is a safe harbor... Walk away Mar 2013 #95

I did not realize I lived in a 95% catholic country nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #165

It's really very different MNBrewer Mar 2013 #97

Swing and miss. Deep13 Mar 2013 #126

If I follow their logic then I would have to say there isn't a single good person on this Earth. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #176

All the Catholic bashers can't be pedophiles The Second Stone Mar 2013 #178

good point. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #179

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Zoeisright Mar 2013 #192

I have read enough of your posts. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #196

I have to agree. It is pretty laughable. Walk away Mar 2013 #211

Only if they are invested in or support Wall St. raouldukelives Mar 2013 #210

What about the Democratic party? hughee99 Mar 2013 #216

Stupid, false analogy Marrah_G Mar 2013 #218

How do you know that they know it? Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #227

There is a difference between Catholic Bashing and Vatican Bashing Taverner Mar 2013 #222

I treat all religions with equal disdain. hobbit709 Mar 2013 #229

I hope all the people that start divisive threads are not hypocrites. Rex Mar 2013 #230