General Discussion

lindysalsagal

(22,842 posts)

31. I think they're still burning women in india. Not sure.

Tue May 7, 2013, 07:14 PM

May 2013

Sharia law is alive and well, and subjects women to routine treatment just above their livestock.

This is not entirely gone from our modern society, sad to say.

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We all know men who think they deserve to own women: This is a horrifying exaggeration of that. [View all] lindysalsagal May 2013 OP

Excuse me, I don't know any men that want to own upaloopa May 2013 #1

How old are you? lindysalsagal May 2013 #3

I'll be 67 next week. I don't need you to teach me about life! upaloopa May 2013 #7

Apparently, you do. lindysalsagal May 2013 #11

I really don't know how to deal with people like you. upaloopa May 2013 #12

This thread already has 8 recs in a few minutes. lindysalsagal May 2013 #14

So your posse recs you post gunners get that too upaloopa May 2013 #16

I have 0 posse, and I don't know anyone on here. I am not a chronic user. Sorry. lindysalsagal May 2013 #22

Recs mean bugger all on DU these days. A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #24

I just added another rec. Whisp May 2013 #54

I'm only surprised that I was the first to say it. lindysalsagal May 2013 #57

"Why do they take this so personally? " NCTraveler May 2013 #199

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #232

Feminazi? Are you a Rush fan that just made a wrong turn and ended up here? Whisp May 2013 #234

+1, or as our new member would say: sufrommich May 2013 #235

The great Limppaw labels all women with their own opinion feminazis. lindysalsagal May 2013 #304

Thats only because TPTB took away unrec krawhitham May 2013 #126

Mebbe DU isn't group therapy. cliffordu May 2013 #153

Denial? mzteris May 2013 #109

You need to find a new circle of friends krawhitham May 2013 #122

A circle of friends who needs to be told what to think. EOTE May 2013 #226

Thank you so much for telling women how to think! EOTE May 2013 #225

Age and experience do not neccessitate one another. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #46

Hey this is not about life. N_E_1 for Tennis May 2013 #208

So I wanted to wait awhile so you could get what you needed out of this OP and me. upaloopa May 2013 #102

"You are all about yourself and your need for gratification. " Pure projection. lindysalsagal May 2013 #308

Well my post has been turned over to the jury and it is still standing. You know why? Because upaloopa May 2013 #313

I've known more men than I can count who felt PatSeg May 2013 #205

And even among (many, not all) of the men I've known who are "good guys" Arugula Latte May 2013 #223

My father never treated my mother that way, PatSeg May 2013 #229

Feeling that you matter more than the other... Bonobo May 2013 #317

Damn. Aristus May 2013 #4

You find somewhere else. This is a reality. More assaults in the military today. lindysalsagal May 2013 #8

I know what's happening. I still don't know anyone upaloopa May 2013 #15

A very wise person told me once a long time ago SemperEadem May 2013 #53

A wiser person would say there is only one reality. upaloopa May 2013 #103

And a fool would claim to know it as their own allGoodThings May 2013 #178

Which one is that? lunatica May 2013 #183

As a white man, I don't claim to share the same "reality" as, say, a black man SwissTony May 2013 #188

No, only an old fool who's on the losing end of an argument SemperEadem May 2013 #211

You don't know shit about reality. You have your opinions based on the paradigm you see life upaloopa May 2013 #218

the exact same thing applies to you SemperEadem May 2013 #346

+10.000 smirkymonkey May 2013 #340

how can you be so sure you know everyone that well? Whisp May 2013 #56

+1 MadrasT May 2013 #61

YES YOU DO Skittles May 2013 #67

There it is: lindysalsagal May 2013 #71

it's like saying you don't know any gay people Skittles May 2013 #75

If you will remember some time back we had the same conversation and I told you I have a lot to upaloopa May 2013 #107

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #110

when I was in the military Skittles May 2013 #119

It is not all men with Asian wives but MattBaggins May 2013 #125

Yes, I agree wickerwoman May 2013 #131

So what? LittleBlue May 2013 #169

The problem is in defining femininity wickerwoman May 2013 #172

I think they're picking up on you saying "it's racist to begin with" Turborama May 2013 #173

I'm not saying it's racist to prefer a certain type. wickerwoman May 2013 #186

So, you don't see anything wrong with the initial assumption and are doubling down on it? Turborama May 2013 #190

I disagree with that post Aerows May 2013 #212

It's called a discussion. wickerwoman May 2013 #230

You are spot on.. AsahinaKimi May 2013 #213

Well said. Too bad your other post was unfairly hidden. redqueen May 2013 #315

That what people in Ariel Castro's neighborhood thought too BainsBane May 2013 #139

Just because you don't know anyone personally doesn't mean the attitude isn't out there justiceischeap May 2013 #179

Very well said. DLevine May 2013 #185

Wake up! N_E_1 for Tennis May 2013 #210

Most military sexual assaults are male on male, though Recursion May 2013 #159

There were 3364 assaults reported in the military this year BainsBane May 2013 #164

A DoD survey said 1% of males and 6% of females Recursion May 2013 #166

Sounds like those are separate surveys. BainsBane May 2013 #167

also 6% sounds very low BainsBane May 2013 #168

Will add what I wrote below - some Latin American countries flamingdem May 2013 #27

You couldn't defend the point in your first reference BainsBane May 2013 #141

Brazil never had any such law whopis01 May 2013 #182

Yes, thank you for that clarification BainsBane May 2013 #233

You must not get out much. Time and again this happens - kestrel91316 May 2013 #48

Some people just want a happy picture of reality, regardless of it's accuracy. lindysalsagal May 2013 #49

But there is a less extreme but more common version: Squinch May 2013 #97

excuse me heaven05 May 2013 #60

It never gets old. liberalmuse May 2013 #64

+1 nt freedom fighter jh May 2013 #98

more ++++++++++ from me BlancheSplanchnik May 2013 #106

Well I have a wife, a mother, a mother in law, sisters in law, nieces I've had lots of female upaloopa May 2013 #111

Thank you. Jamastiene May 2013 #181

+10000000000000 redqueen May 2013 #316

Hell yeah. You said it perfectly. Matariki May 2013 #323

Some men are extremely controlling of women as if they owned them Bjorn Against May 2013 #87

Thank you. I actually really enjoy men- but I know the realities of our society. lindysalsagal May 2013 #89

it seems anti-men to me hfojvt May 2013 #170

I'll introduce you to my ex, then you'll know one of them. n/t proReality May 2013 #93

Then you have had a wonderful or ignorant 76 years. JanMichael May 2013 #96

67 not 76. You fell better saying that shit to me? upaloopa May 2013 #112

The fact that you live in a cave and are proud of it is astounding. JanMichael May 2013 #216

why are you such an a hole? upaloopa May 2013 #217

I just notice you are the one cursing. "shit" "a hole" very cave like. Thanks. JanMichael May 2013 #280

it's the same as right-wingers railing against all muslims. Roland99 May 2013 #194

I have. LWolf May 2013 #195

You're fortunate. I'm glad for you. Trina May 2013 #200

Welcome to DU wryter2000 May 2013 #206

Powerful post. Thanks. And Welcome to DU! SunSeeker May 2013 #259

Welcome. Squinch May 2013 #267

welcome to DU, Trina Skittles May 2013 #292

WOOT! +1000000 Katashi_itto May 2013 #241

THIS on a progressive political discussion board. I love it. left coaster May 2013 #278

Most men aren't like this......but some sure as hell are. CaliforniaPeggy May 2013 #2

my first husband was like that. DesertFlower May 2013 #19

I didn't know you then, and I never saw your hair like that... CaliforniaPeggy May 2013 #23

i was young when i married him -- just 19 and DesertFlower May 2013 #33

More power to you! CaliforniaPeggy May 2013 #37

The important thing is that you got out. Good for you. It's not easy sometimes. lindysalsagal May 2013 #29

i moved on. it was a long time ago. DesertFlower May 2013 #43

That's what I said, and they knew I meant business, too. Happy for your later happiness. freshwest May 2013 #115

You can tell the 67 year old poster you know of another story. Dustlawyer May 2013 #81

That's my point: This happens in many smaller ways in all of our lives. lindysalsagal May 2013 #84

I'm glad you posted this thread, and I love men... good ones. freshwest May 2013 #118

So are some women. The abuse is more likely to be verbal and emotional rather winter is coming May 2013 #92

You're quite right. n/t CaliforniaPeggy May 2013 #95

I'm sorry that you know men like that. (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #5

I'm sorry there are men like that. n/t whathehell May 2013 #21

I am lucky in that I don't "know" any men like that. The men I have known (well enough to keep ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #6

Several posters seem to be more disturbed by the OP's assertion that we all know someone like this Gormy Cuss May 2013 #214

Once again, I have to draw exception with this sort of statement... Scootaloo May 2013 #9

+1. lol. good point. it is like when we say grown men are acting like 13 yr old boys. seabeyond May 2013 #193

Well... that works a little better Scootaloo May 2013 #239

ya. grown men saying stupid ass shit like this. nt seabeyond May 2013 #250

Just saying, wasn't at my most rational at that age Scootaloo May 2013 #264

see. an interest in breast, ya. all had an interest in the other sex. seabeyond May 2013 #285

That's not at all what I'm doing Scootaloo May 2013 #320

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Dash87 May 2013 #219

The day I find out I know someone who thinks he deserves to own women... cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #10

there are a lot on the web BainsBane May 2013 #13

If they're ostracized, singled out, and shunned like the monsters they are... cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #17

I don't think so BainsBane May 2013 #18

Okay. cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #20

You and others doing just that is what will minimize it. Squinch May 2013 #100

Those involve voluntary dominance/submission between kestrel91316 May 2013 #50

There is widespread human trafficking BainsBane May 2013 #65

Many Latin American nations permit a man to shoot and kill flamingdem May 2013 #25

I think they're still burning women in india. Not sure. lindysalsagal May 2013 #31

Yes, of course, it's even worse there! flamingdem May 2013 #32

Do you mean Sati? SemperEadem May 2013 #59

Right. India. I think they also still have "honor killings" in india lindysalsagal May 2013 #62

Sharia law in India? BainsBane May 2013 #78

You're the one confusing these separate examples, so, stop complaining lindysalsagal May 2013 #79

Islam does not have a custom SemperEadem May 2013 #209

Then why did you put the two sentences together? BainsBane May 2013 #82

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #99

Puerto Rico is part of the US BainsBane May 2013 #108

really? BainsBane May 2013 #76

That is a false, hate-mongering, racist statement whopis01 May 2013 #184

That part doesn't matter as long as cliffordu May 2013 #201

I don't think that was what they were trying to do - at least not specifically whopis01 May 2013 #222

notice that members favorite group BainsBane May 2013 #242

where did you hear that? Enrique May 2013 #295

I think that's probably not true - what is your source? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #335

I've been "work-stalked" by a few of them magical thyme May 2013 #26

You're right: Some can't stand anyone who's their equal. lindysalsagal May 2013 #34

Most men think women are, in some capacity, items for consumption. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #28

Women work all day and then come home and start their second job: lindysalsagal May 2013 #36

Some men do help. Most men do not. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #40

Lots of women highly encourage that behavior Major Nikon May 2013 #135

You know one couple that does that cliffordu May 2013 #202

Domestic sex work is not an outlier. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #302

Lemme get this right: cliffordu May 2013 #306

Take a look at the time use surveys on the BLS website Major Nikon May 2013 #114

When did you develop that hypothesis? You sure as hell weren't born that way. Isn't it a bit upaloopa May 2013 #116

I find it flattering you think I built such a theory of my own volition. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #117

No, it is clear that you do not. Nice to trash a whole gender, though. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #220

It's not clear to you because you don't agree with me. But I do have a good understanding. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #301

Sexist Major Nikon May 2013 #136

Yeah...no. My argument is not essentialist. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #138

Some vs "most" Major Nikon May 2013 #146

I dont think you know the basic definitions of those words. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #147

Methinks you should find other rhetorical devices besides condescension Major Nikon May 2013 #149

Untrue. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #336

Definitely true. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #338

I suggest you consider what the word "most" means. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #345

And believe it or not, there are women who want to be "owned". A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #30

But I doubt that means they want to be abused flamingdem May 2013 #35

There is abuse and then there is something else. A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #42

Oh thaaat stuff. That doesn't count, it's another flamingdem May 2013 #51

I think, though, it does count.. on this jackass` part at least.. opiate69 May 2013 #58

What do you suppose makes someone go to that level? BainsBane May 2013 #268

Honestly, I think both are possible. opiate69 May 2013 #270

he had a dungeon set up BainsBane May 2013 #273

Yeah.. which is why I've been trying to poke around Fetlife... opiate69 May 2013 #276

Who did she kill? BainsBane May 2013 #282

her former therapist/lover.... very weird case... opiate69 May 2013 #283

Wow BainsBane May 2013 #291

Yeah.. there`s a lot about the reporting that leaves a bunch to be desired.. opiate69 May 2013 #307

Creepy BainsBane May 2013 #312

Yup.. it`s a crazy little world we have here, innit? opiate69 May 2013 #314

Also.. just for old times sake, here's an accounting of another now-convicted murderer whom I knew.. opiate69 May 2013 #318

Life takes strange turns BainsBane May 2013 #324

This is really a bogus posit cliffordu May 2013 #207

Sad to say, I think you're right. Not gonna be me. lindysalsagal May 2013 #38

And that's fine. A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #45

Everyone needs a good Heretic in their corner! lindysalsagal May 2013 #47

Those women are called Republicans, and they probably all kestrel91316 May 2013 #52

Judeo-christian tradition begins with Mary as a prostitute and Eve a greedy corruptor. lindysalsagal May 2013 #55

Mary was a prostitute? NealK May 2013 #228

Mary Magdalene. Interesting, how she and his mother are both Marys.... lindysalsagal May 2013 #303

Actually, 2 of the 4 women that I said I knew.... A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #66

i don't see how anyone with those views can be considered liberal JI7 May 2013 #152

I think this part is intriguing. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #39

It is precisely the case that men have such a monopoly. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #41

No, it's not a monopoly. jeff47 May 2013 #63

It is a monopoly. Your ex wife does not negate that fact. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #69

So you're saying I need to link the definition of monopoly? (nt) jeff47 May 2013 #72

You can if you'd like. Although it won't help you. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #83

Apparently you need me to provide different links then jeff47 May 2013 #86

Wrong. A monopoly means exclusive control over _____ Gravitycollapse May 2013 #91

he he he, you gotta hell of a lesson coming i think. galileoreloaded May 2013 #74

Yes. Conditional and transactional. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #129

Funny then that men don't feel it is normal to carry around Bonobo May 2013 #160

ah the tragedy of youth galileoreloaded May 2013 #215

+1 cliffordu May 2013 #309

No. I just know that any good DU thread comes with personal threats. lindysalsagal May 2013 #44

To the extent that "the patriarchy" is a thing... lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #203

you use women in a utilitarian way. whenever an issue is posted that negatively affects women... CreekDog May 2013 #330

Whatever. You're talking to a voice command, self-propelled bottle opener. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #332

Why not just get a job with the GOP? Zavulon May 2013 #68

No one here is claiming all men think they own women. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #73

Exactly: Some believe they deserve to own women, but few take these steps to make it actually happen lindysalsagal May 2013 #77

Not all, just most Major Nikon May 2013 #137

Yes, in some capacity, most men think they possess women. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #140

Sounds more like a non sequitur Major Nikon May 2013 #148

They have no authority over me that I do not allow under informed consent. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #150

I don't understand either statement Major Nikon May 2013 #157

Sure they do LittleBlue May 2013 #163

It's practically official policy for Republicans. tclambert May 2013 #70

This message was self-deleted by its author Demo_Chris May 2013 #80

We have the new president of the NRA stating adieu May 2013 #85

Satire -- Hell Hath No Fury May 2013 #88

I got Poe'd? Really? adieu May 2013 #145

I believe you did. Thankfully. nomorenomore08 May 2013 #262

Snopes says that is false. Jamastiene May 2013 #191

Utter horseshit. I have never known anyone like that. Throd May 2013 #90

K&R. I do know men who think this way. It is disgusting and unacceptable. NRaleighLiberal May 2013 #94

Thank you. freshwest May 2013 #143

I don't know any men who think they own women LittleBlue May 2013 #101

I'm probalby not as with it as a lot of progressive men - I admit that I have had a tendency to piss Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #104

I wonder where you got your social science degree? We are all not made from some chemical formula upaloopa May 2013 #113

if you REALLY don't know ANY men who feel that way - you do need to learn about life Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #123

It is neither ancient nor impulsive. It is a product of socialization. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #120

at least since the rise of the agrarian era - as far as pre-history we don't know Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #124

Agrarian era? Are you referring to the rise of agriculture? Or Agrarianism? Gravitycollapse May 2013 #127

when humans started organizing Agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and in the Southern Arabian Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #151

Wow, so much absurdity in one post. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #156

there is such a thing as critical thinking and recognizing that causes and effects are complex Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #171

The absurdity in your post lies in the false belief that male violence is innate. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #305

of course it is not innate in the sense that it cannot be and should not be controlled. If that Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #311

whoa sparky. check yourself. galileoreloaded May 2013 #341

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #342

in prose or in intent? galileoreloaded May 2013 #343

In logic. Learned responses can be inherently wrong. Gravitycollapse May 2013 #344

I agree. I have dated a lot of "nice", progressive men, but as the smirkymonkey May 2013 #293

Some polyamorists too. Triana May 2013 #105

We all probably know men like that but may not be aware of it Karia May 2013 #121

"We all know men who think they deserve to own women..." Jenoch May 2013 #128

Statistically, you probably know at least one wife who is physically abused by her husband. Squinch May 2013 #269

I am sure that is true. Jenoch May 2013 #287

And yet, the OP didn't say that her words applied to all men. And you have just agreed that, Squinch May 2013 #289

I got that tone Jenoch May 2013 #294

So your point of disagreement is the tone. Squinch May 2013 #298

Not in case. My ex harrasses me, continues to e-mail, text,... despite my best effort JackN415 May 2013 #130

Women who think they own their men... JackN415 May 2013 #132

Indeed the expectation that a man will work Bonobo May 2013 #161

"Work to support me" came from the attitude "don't work because I will support you." Gormy Cuss May 2013 #296

Right, because that's just like BainsBane May 2013 #165

Citing a single anecotal case to make a point is the most ignorant way to... JackN415 May 2013 #175

The point wasn't people doing stupid or criminal things BainsBane May 2013 #176

It's you who wrongfully misinterprete what I wrote. non-sequitur in your thinking and logic. JackN415 May 2013 #189

You responding to an OP talking about BainsBane May 2013 #246

there is no gender equality in criminal psychopaths BainsBane May 2013 #180

There is gender equality in non-criminal pyschopaths. It doesn't have to be criminal to cause... JackN415 May 2013 #187

Some are. Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #133

Fortunately, this is not so prevalent in Northern Europe, KitSileya May 2013 #134

Some do. XVI_Eyes May 2013 #142

+1 n/t JackN415 May 2013 #174

Guys who get mail order brides seem to be controlling. Manifestor_of_Light May 2013 #144

That's not the complaints I've heard from such men davidn3600 May 2013 #158

Men who get 'mail order brides' are pathetic scum. geek tragedy May 2013 #198

Isnt that the way any dating works though? davidn3600 May 2013 #237

Dating works by two people meeting and interacting in a social setting. geek tragedy May 2013 #238

Which is online dating, isn't it? davidn3600 May 2013 #243

The men are the customers, the women are the product. That's how the business model geek tragedy May 2013 #245

You are ignoring the question davidn3600 May 2013 #272

Ones that treat men and women as equals, no. geek tragedy May 2013 #274

that is certainly what they say allGoodThings May 2013 #204

I'm marrying a Japanese girl LittleBlue May 2013 #162

Wow. Just wait til she finds out how 'charming' you are. Matariki May 2013 #326

You're off base there LittleBlue May 2013 #327

So, if you are not thinking of your 'Japanese girl' as a commodity Matariki May 2013 #333

It is nice that you are so bothered by this LittleBlue May 2013 #337

It seems that your post was meant to bother and offend, so mission accomplished, I guess. Matariki May 2013 #339

This message was self-deleted by its author Matariki May 2013 #334

Many *people* don't value human beings. People express such a mentality differently.. RedCappedBandit May 2013 #154

Agreed wholeheartedly!!! N/T Inkfreak May 2013 #329

Hyperbole much? Apophis May 2013 #155

Criminal men imprisoned their women by locking them up. I was a male victim JackN415 May 2013 #177

The broadbrush attacks on men.. 99Forever May 2013 #192

Gee, big surprise that they didn't "express" that. Arugula Latte May 2013 #224

Nice jump to light speed you've got there. 99Forever May 2013 #231

So you and most men on DU have stories of their children being murdered by women? Arugula Latte May 2013 #244

Enjoy. 99Forever May 2013 #248

those are all DUers, huh? Scout May 2013 #255

I dunno. 99Forever May 2013 #256

Yeah, you missed the point. Arugula Latte May 2013 #261

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #263

You lost so you resort to the Teabagger insult. Arugula Latte May 2013 #265

what the fuck it has to do with ANYTHING is that was the subject of the post you replied to. Scout May 2013 #277

News flash: 99Forever May 2013 #286

you don't even have a point now Scout May 2013 #297

You know what? My ex used to talk like some posters replying to you here... JackN415 May 2013 #249

I just think they need to ... 99Forever May 2013 #252

I have to agree on this issue. Anyone who knows a troglodyte, misogynistic woman-owner Common Sense Party May 2013 #258

why do you assume they don't now have a different group of acquaintances? Scout May 2013 #279

I don't believe I did assume that. If a woman-owning cave man is among your acquaintances or social Common Sense Party May 2013 #281

why are you so upset? Whisp May 2013 #284

Upset? 99Forever May 2013 #288

take what? Whisp May 2013 #290

You really should not be commenting in this thread, as it is NOT about politics. Common Sense Party May 2013 #251

Ahhh... isn't that special? 99Forever May 2013 #253

Or did you have a political point to make? Common Sense Party May 2013 #254

Can you say Ignored? 99Forever May 2013 #257

The universe is entropy. Can you say 'entropy,' boys and girls? Common Sense Party May 2013 #271

Can you say locked out of the thread? JTFrog May 2013 #300

As a man, I agree. dotymed May 2013 #196

Yes... davidthegnome May 2013 #197

Bush said we should have an ownership society. Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #221

theres also consentual BDSM lifestyle "ownership" of both men and women but....consent is the key... CarrieLynne May 2013 #227

"We all know X who think Y..." lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #236

+1 you and I fall into this troll-thread trap. Normally, I would skip stuffs like this. :) n/t JackN415 May 2013 #247

I am proud to say that I don't know any man like that. Rex May 2013 #240

Hate transcends gender Animal Chin May 2013 #260

Yes, I do know men like that. SunSeeker May 2013 #266

They're not all thugs marions ghost May 2013 #275

Here's an example of a doctor in Houston who has assaulted his wife. Manifestor_of_Light May 2013 #299

We all know Muslims who think that infidels should be shown no mercy FreeJoe May 2013 #310

Just please separate polygamy from polyamory tavalon May 2013 #319

... Zorra May 2013 #321

Truth ^^ opiate69 May 2013 #322

This was neither BainsBane May 2013 #325

we all know possessive women Enrique May 2013 #328

Everything is an object - and Paterfamilias never really left us Taverner May 2013 #331