General Discussion

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)

56. What makes you think anyone is different from them? The point of the lessons that were

Wed Jul 10, 2013, 04:20 PM

Jul 2013

supposed to have been learned, but there seems to be huge resistance to doing so, from what happened in Germany is how unlikely it would have been to have thought it would have happened there in the first place.

Our FFs long before Germany, warned about never trusting any Government with too much power, I believe Jefferson even added 'even us'. Why would they warn about such a thing, because they were aware of human nature.

What happened in Germany CAN happen, anywhere because human nature is pretty much the same everywhere. There are good people everywhere and their are those who crave power and money everywhere.

The system of government we choose to live under RECOGNIZES that and has safeguards within it to try to prevent it.

But that is up to the people. When the people allow fear to persuade them to throw away their rights, they are sowing the same seeds that are always a requirement, Germany being one of the most recent historical example of this, to create a Totalitarian State.

To avoid that the people must sound the alarm when they see any signs of fear-mongering resulting in compromises regarding freedoms.

When someone asks you to give up some freedoms in order to be safe, you antennae should naturally go on alert.

I think we have allowed it to go too far in this country already, 9/11 being used constantly as the fear factor.

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NOW It IS About Snowden. [View all] sabrina 1 Jul 2013 OP

If only we could discuss the illegal spying Savannahmann Jul 2013 #1

WE could, and we will. They cannot stop that, but if they want to make it about Snowden sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #2

Rep. King looks like he is an evil shrew on NSA payroll BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #69

King is the one who said 'we count the votes' meaning I guess, Republicans. They own the voting sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #111

He did specify the Supreme Court (specifically, Alito). nt Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #175

Actually Tice did name Supreme Court BehindTheCurtain76 Jul 2013 #189

funny, I started a thread yesterday about HOW the FBI/NSA accesses lines. Sank like a stone KittyWampus Jul 2013 #22

It's much more fun to slam Snowden Savannahmann Jul 2013 #28

What?? R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #108

Well, that's because THEY made it about Snowden. So if you want to get attention for sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #38

You're wrong. They're spying on puppes too. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #109

I have a puppy. Now you're scaring me! sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #128

There may be great products for puppies, but at all costs "they" will deny any R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #129

You're not suggesting that they would be selling our data to Big Corps, and whoever else wants sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #132

No, they would never lie to us... R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #134

Phew, that's what I thought! sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #139

Post the links here dreamnightwind Jul 2013 #61

Could you please provide a link? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #84

Would you mind sending me that link? R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #107

It is so curious that there is a movement to do just that on a "Democratic" message board. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #106

They've made that inevitable. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #155

Message for the NSA: Lonr Jul 2013 #3

Good point. They will have to redirect and expand their smears toward the public now. reformist2 Jul 2013 #4

And the more they do that, the more desperate they look and the more we wonder 'what are they sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #5

There is a NEW one surfacing. bvar22 Jul 2013 #73

That's only calling out your side's hypocrisy ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #81

Again, we are talking about POLICY, bvar22 Jul 2013 #90

Consistent principles? How rigid can you be? merrily Jul 2013 #101

Be more specific because when election season rolls around as it always does, we will be sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #136

Sorry. I was being sarcastic. I thought it would be obvious, so I didn't merrily Jul 2013 #137

Lol, I wondered if you were serious or not, but you never know these days on Du so sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #138

It's not POLICY hen you call Obama a NAZI, a "Corporatist", an "Authorarian" ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #160

Hey, Proud member of the Reality Community.... bvar22 Jul 2013 #177

You know as well as I do that "calling out" other posts is against DU rules ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #182

So you GOT NOTHING. bvar22 Jul 2013 #185

The "you" in that context was clearly not intended to be personal to "bvar22" ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #186

When responding to a specific individual... bvar22 Jul 2013 #187

Shhh. You'll wake the ponies. merrily Jul 2013 #100

I don't worship any president. I pity those that feel the need to. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #110

And there it is again, the personalization of issues, 'your hero' v 'our hero'. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #135

Yep I saw that one emerge too. zeemike Jul 2013 #85

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fit a wheelchair under a bus? merrily Jul 2013 #99

OK... Made me laugh. bvar22 Jul 2013 #158

I've seen that one. And Ellsberg too. I can't keep up with the Liberals who have been trashed sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #131

Thank You For Sharing cantbeserious Jul 2013 #6

More Americans support prosecuting Snowden michigandem58 Jul 2013 #7

Still doesn't make illegal spying legal. n/t BB1 Jul 2013 #8

More Germans supported prosecuting their Whistle Blowers also, they were wrong. They fell sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #9

Remember, Everything That Hitler Did Was "Legal" Demeter Jul 2013 #12

Can't leave the German stuff alone Progressive dog Jul 2013 #14

Polling the "world" is not the point. Polling an informed populace is. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #16

Where are the German Whistle blowers? Progressive dog Jul 2013 #18

What makes you think anyone is different from them? The point of the lessons that were sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #56

I don't think that we are different, I know it Progressive dog Jul 2013 #65

We ARE different in some ways, smarter maybe in that we keep up appearances while sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #77

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Never forget, it is one of the more recent sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #42

People who have history paranoia Progressive dog Jul 2013 #165

I get the impression you dont like whistle-blowers. And what's your definition of "progressive"? nm rhett o rick Jul 2013 #70

If whistle blowers steal US classified material, Progressive dog Jul 2013 #170

So you believe the state is always right? Never a time to challenge the authoritarian state? rhett o rick Jul 2013 #171

A lot of the Germans who blew the whistle died because they did it. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #86

Oh my, I am so afraid Progressive dog Jul 2013 #167

I lived in German-speaking countries. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #168

I think the fearmongers are a much Progressive dog Jul 2013 #169

I see a lot of the same trends in the US now that were present in Germany in the 1930s. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #172

"Our paranoia is an excuse" Progressive dog Jul 2013 #176

Would you agree that Eastern Europe during the Soviet period were paranoid states? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #178

Of course they were not paranoid states nt Progressive dog Jul 2013 #179

Were you ever in one? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #180

Oh expertise by being there Progressive dog Jul 2013 #181

Die Wei�e Rose or the White Rose. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #113

That's kind of an interesting factoid... Blanks Jul 2013 #51

Do you know what the Nazis did to those who dared to speak out against them? sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #148

Look back at your claim. Blanks Jul 2013 #173

Nope. 55% say he's a whistleblower, not a traitor. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #24

Every authoritarian state nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #43

These people who mock us for being concerned about NSA surveillance Maedhros Jul 2013 #62

These people choose submission to authority. When you challenge their authority figure or state, rhett o rick Jul 2013 #74

Says who? Where pray tell did you pull this "fact"? ? ? Civilization2 Jul 2013 #94

It takes a "Constitutional Scholar", and 5 "Strict Constructionists" Supreme Court Justices Demeter Jul 2013 #10

Actually it is one Supreme Court Justice davidpdx Jul 2013 #145

Du rec. Nt xchrom Jul 2013 #11

Excellent post! another_liberal Jul 2013 #13

Wonderful essay and photos - Many thanks! byeya Jul 2013 #15

Snowden Worship? HipChick Jul 2013 #17

Its not about Snowden except when it is about Snowden. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #19

I haven't met a Snowden fan here yet. I have met and read several individuals R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #114

Then you aren't paying attention. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #151

It's much easier to denigrate outrage by using a broad-brush attack R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #188

And the Surveillance State is still the issue, no matter how much effort is put into trying to sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #130

Actually I have said, in other threads, on this facinating topic. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #152

What's the difference? Both offended their governments, both were pursued by their governments sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #44

What "extreme punishment" are you referring to (re: Snowden)? Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #59

If Snowden were facing the threat of a drone strike Maedhros Jul 2013 #64

I don't think the analogy is good Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #68

And then there was Awlaki's 16 yr old son, droned to death on his way to a party. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #154

The analogy fit pretty well, and hit close to the bone from the sound of it. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #115

"hit close to the bone from the sound of it" Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #117

Look it up on the internets. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #119

I know what the expression means Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #120

Perhaps you need to meditate on it until you are enlightened? R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #122

So Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #125

You have not yet reached enlightenment. Please continue, Proud Liberal Dem. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #127

See Bradley Manning. Tortured, kept in solitary confinement until the UN and State Dept sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #133

It sounds like he was mentally unstable and being kept under suicide/prevention of injury watch Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2013 #157

That lie, told to try to cover the treatment when it received world wide comdemnation, sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #162

Looks like you kicked the hive again, sabrina 1. Zorra Jul 2013 #20

Actually, ProSense Jul 2013 #21

Actually, I'll side with Snowden over traitor Peter King. It's still about SPYING and LYING. chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #23

If credibility is based on a person's background, as you insist, Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #27

Strangely enough, PS wrote the following once. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #116

Oh dear, the delicious irony NuclearDem Jul 2013 #32

Yes, I forgot about that one, that he gave secrets to the Chinese etc. Without a shred of sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #37

I suppose ProSense Jul 2013 #39

The Chinese are spying on everyone also and most likely knew all of this anyhow.. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #47

If you can't trust two unnamed sources from U.S. spy agencies Maedhros Jul 2013 #66

Lol! I don't know, Snowden maybe? sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #153

Good grief. Apophis Jul 2013 #45

Pathetic ain't it. n/t L0oniX Jul 2013 #126

K&R! :) whatchamacallit Jul 2013 #25

K&R idwiyo Jul 2013 #26

Beautiful thread. woo me with science Jul 2013 #29

What's with the boxes thing? Never heard of that. JaneyVee Jul 2013 #30

"He has boxes in his garage!" Hydra Jul 2013 #33

I still don't get it, will have to look it up. Thanks though. Also I thought she JaneyVee Jul 2013 #35

That's my understanding too Hydra Jul 2013 #36

Before I had time to figure it out, they had moved quickly to the next one on the list. Things sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #50

Here you go: bvar22 Jul 2013 #82

'Not on Social Media'!! That's an interesting little item considering the claims that they had found sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #183

Grasping sand Hydra Jul 2013 #31

DURec leftstreet Jul 2013 #34

Snowden is a traitor because he turned on the lights and exposed what the government is doing Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #40

+1 nashville_brook Jul 2013 #57

I guess TT never heard of the KKK in Virginia... or will he create one about it? Amonester Jul 2013 #41

Did anyone say that crime should be ignored? I think we are saying the OPPOSITE. CRIME sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #46

I hope so too, but since actually, it seems they do let them grow their foolish stupidity Amonester Jul 2013 #48

Or maybe they are not surveilling all this data to catch terrorists. Maybe it is 'data mining' to be sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #49

we apply the principle of accountability to powerless, and the principle of forgiveness to powerful nashville_brook Jul 2013 #60

Tom Tomorrow reads DU, no doubt about it :) nt Electric Monk Jul 2013 #52

K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #53

k/r marmar Jul 2013 #54

I'll take whichever side Peter King is against...any day of the week. nashville_brook Jul 2013 #55

I didn't want to go overboard as some people are a bit sensitive about whose side they are sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #72

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #58

But.. But... Egg... Face.. Chinese Spy... BLUE MEENIES!!! SomethingFishy Jul 2013 #63

HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #67

Character assassination is a fallacy of logic. Cleita Jul 2013 #71

Very true. Thank you. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #75

Sure, why wouldn't you be able to use it? Cleita Jul 2013 #80

k&r thanks for posting. rhett o rick Jul 2013 #76

He's just the kid that said " Wheres your clothes ? " to the orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #78

"All" is false. aquart Jul 2013 #79

So what is it? LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #87

Because he gave aid and comfort to our direct competitors. aquart Jul 2013 #105

Snowden didn't release anything that was not already known to foreign intelligence services Fumesucker Jul 2013 #124

Wow. Trying to have it both ways. aquart Jul 2013 #143

I don't think I agree with you that nothing can be done to stop all this surveillance. All this is sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #144

I think I know why Snowden quit his job, went to Hong Kong and blew the whistle. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #83

And thankyou Sabrina! LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #88

Hero worship is fucking stupid period Californeeway Jul 2013 #89

You missed the point LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #93

I didn't miss the point Californeeway Jul 2013 #104

You didn't read the OP, did you? sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #97

Posted before reading again? bvar22 Jul 2013 #156

Because the issue is valid, Snowden may if anything get DirkGently Jul 2013 #91

Sabrina thank you so much for laying out such a clear argument about why to keep talking about midnight Jul 2013 #92

knr Douglas Carpenter Jul 2013 #95

Way to go, Sabrina! 20score Jul 2013 #96

Rep. Peter King (R-NY) - documented terrorist supporter. mwooldri Jul 2013 #98

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #102

Lol, another who didn't read the OP. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #112

You keep this up and I'm gonna have to do a DU Shout Out to Sabrina 1. L0oniX Jul 2013 #123

Lol, I think considering my 'fan' club you'd do better with a 'smack down'! sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #141

Jeeze... L0oniX Jul 2013 #121

Another K & R Liberal_Dog Jul 2013 #103

Thank you for acting like a Democrat should act. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2013 #118

It's hilarious. It's about Snowden all over Latin America now too Catherina Jul 2013 #140

I know, it's incomprehensible that they could be this stupid. Don't they know from history, our sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #142

I have deep, mad respect for him. Ever since I read of his activities for Madre Tierra years ago Catherina Jul 2013 #150

Yes, that was disgusting and proved beyond a doubt the complete dishonesty of those sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #161

You're so welcome. I stand firmly by his side, and yours, and others on the same wavelength Catherina Jul 2013 #164

what a great example! LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #166

I don't think it is about any one person, company, or agency davidpdx Jul 2013 #146

The last panel with Ben Franklin is brilliant NickB79 Jul 2013 #147

I know, I love that one. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #149

Snowden's a hero, and a big symbol. I'm fine with him being a lightning rod. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #159

Exactly. At first it was obvious that the pro-surveillance state contingency wanted to talk about sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #184

And strangely, you'd think the anti-snowden persons... allin99 Jul 2013 #163

Oh, the irony! Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #174