General Discussion

Vattel

(9,289 posts)

118. Pure speculation on your part.

Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:20 PM

Jul 2013

"I'm betting he already had his hand on his gun, if not already drawn, and figured he'd hold him at gunpoint. That things didn't work out that way and that an unarmed, unsuspecting teenager found himself fighting a losing battle for his life against a stupid, hateful, bigoted, drug-addled, violent, gun-armed wanna-be cop."

Zimmerman expressed relief when told by Serino that the whole thing was video-taped. That would been an unlikely reaction if he had his gun drawn early on or had initiated the fight. Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with his claim that Martin hit him in the nose and slammed his head on the concrete (though not 20-30 times). Martin was into fighting. Martin had plenty of time to get to his house while Zimmerman talked to the police dispatcher, but he didn't end up very far from Zimmerman. Martin approached Zimmerman's car and so didn't seem particularly scared. If Zimmerman had been so determined to not let Martin get away, he wouldn't have wasted his time talking to the police as Martin ran. Jaentel's interview with the state attorney reveals her to be willing to lie on behalf of Martin.

Do I need to go on? My point is not that Zimmerman is innocent of a crime. My point is that there is loads of reasonable doubt as to his guilt and so he should be acquitted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] kentuck Jul 2013 OP

Same here. Lugnut Jul 2013 #1

I hope the jury comes down in the middle of Zimmerman's back with both feet. He killed that kid for shraby Jul 2013 #2

I'm sure the fight could have been stopped EC Jul 2013 #3

One thing we know for sure... world wide wally Jul 2013 #73

Whatever happened to just saying SCVDem Jul 2013 #215

Bigots and gun nuts defend him. It is very sick and disgusting. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #4

I own 2 hand guns and 2 long guns. By DU standards that makes me a gun nut, and ... 11 Bravo Jul 2013 #9

I support the right to bare arms. I'm not referring to gun owners. I'm referring to gun NUTS!!! :) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #10

If they want the right to bare arms let them wear T shirts. xtraxritical Jul 2013 #14

+1 ReRe Jul 2013 #24

I prefer tank tops wpelb Jul 2013 #52

Better yet, tank tops. maddiemom Jul 2013 #54

This is a bare arm on a bear... chknltl Jul 2013 #158

I'm a gun nut and have identified as such for a while. Screw Zimmerman. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #16

If my comments don't refer to you, then you shouldn't be offended. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #44

I know no offense. Just remember that some of us are gun nuts willingly and responsibly. :) Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #46

Gun nuts has a specific meaning now LynnTTT Jul 2013 #47

Because I'm a gun nut. I am what I am. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #50

What you describe here is NOT what I am referring to. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #61

Oh, aye, and I responded to you a few posts down. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #63

Thanks. That helps. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #69

Depends on your definition of "gun nuts". For me, a gun nut is someone who places no limitations Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #57

Ah, see, that's a vital distinction. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #62

A gun nut is that which goes behind the gun bolt Kennah Jul 2013 #161

with heaven05 Jul 2013 #48

Actually, I own a few more than that. Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #137

I dont own any guns and I dont even belive in them BigD_95 Jul 2013 #173

I agree 100%. HappyMe Jul 2013 #5

His attorney said that Zim was so upset he gained 100 lbs, and perhaps that was punishment enough! 11 Bravo Jul 2013 #11

Okay then. HappyMe Jul 2013 #13

Didn't he and the wife blow through $300,000? displacedtexan Jul 2013 #81

I remember when this all started mimi85 Jul 2013 #131

No. aquart Jul 2013 #126

Sounds like an out-of-control personality disorder indepat Jul 2013 #130

That's just one of many things bothering me about Zimmerman. calimary Jul 2013 #12

He is a murderer. HappyMe Jul 2013 #17

And that upsets me even more. They'll all take it as validation. And justification. calimary Jul 2013 #22

You are better than most lawyers. Most lawyers will do and say any damn thing to win the case. lumpy Jul 2013 #23

"Most lawyers will do and say any damn thing"? Not the reluctant prosecutor. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #39

Is it hard for you to lift that big brush...? Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #93

Well put davidpdx Jul 2013 #139

There it is. Right there. calimary Jul 2013 #199

I get the impression Zim has something very wrong w/him. southerncrone Jul 2013 #152

My feelings also. Good post. nt brush Jul 2013 #189

"....he judged and decided that this 'fucking punk'... WASN'T going to get away..." live love laugh Jul 2013 #207

I knew that about cops, mostly from TV until a college friend of my daughter's maddiemom Jul 2013 #59

I haven't seen him show any kind of emotion. Jenoch Jul 2013 #77

PTSD? HappyMe Jul 2013 #79

It amazes me also how the one who shot/killed was not tested for drugs but treated with kid gloves uppityperson Jul 2013 #6

Yes, that too. HappyMe Jul 2013 #7

OH and to be told on DU there was no REASON to drug test him Skittles Jul 2013 #21

And given 100% benefit of the doubt. I'm shocked that it's here at DU. I didn't expect so many Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #37

That whole Police Dept should be sued... ReRe Jul 2013 #41

Seriously. They didn't even try to cover themmselves (police dept). And the rest of what you write. uppityperson Jul 2013 #43

This Police Department has preformed FarPoint Jul 2013 #176

passions handmade34 Jul 2013 #8

Everything in your post is spot on .... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #20

I see your point BUT cntrygrl Jul 2013 #86

I think that's much more likely... Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #90

They already settled with insurance making the payment ceonupe Jul 2013 #133

I had not heard that. Whiskeytide Jul 2013 #179

Z's father was not and is not a judge. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #214

THANK YOU!! How can you claim self-defense when you intiate the contact? Yavin4 Jul 2013 #15

It doesn't matter that Zimmerman initiated contact or got our of his car Bonduel Jul 2013 #208

I am astounded that the prosecution is not focusing more on the time before the "fight". jtuck004 Jul 2013 #18

The relative inaction of the reluctant prosecutor may let him walk. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #40

I agree that it is an attempt at a sham trial, but no one in their right mind MH1 Jul 2013 #222

I see Zimmerman libodem Jul 2013 #19

Wow - a MOST valuable post, libodem! calimary Jul 2013 #25

well handmade34 Jul 2013 #33

With malice of forethought libodem Jul 2013 #38

aforethought nt tiny elvis Jul 2013 #100

Nice post Jim9090 Jul 2013 #82

Do you think Zimmerman is innocent? hrmjustin Jul 2013 #83

Yes Jim9090 Jul 2013 #99

how is T misguided and what was his bad decision? elehhhhna Jul 2013 #103

Sure Jim9090 Jul 2013 #109

The man is a murderer! I do not feel sorry for him. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #110

Not dangerous? Heck, he was training to kill with his hands, and carried a gun Hoyt Jul 2013 #114

k, thanks elehhhhna Jul 2013 #115

he STALKED AND KILLED AN INNOCENT PERSON Skittles Jul 2013 #145

I have trouble with understanding why in the world Trayvon would have attacked Zimmerman Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #146

How do you sucker punch someone lolly Jul 2013 #155

When Zimmerman started to pursue Trayvon Martion, his mantle of innocence collapsed. Kennah Jul 2013 #165

Naivete is a wonderful thing brush Jul 2013 #193

oh, my, this post was even funnier than your first. again, thanks for the laughs. niyad Jul 2013 #197

Everyone has a right to their opinions, but are yours actually backed up by the facts. olegramps Jul 2013 #200

Thank you for being civil Jim9090 Jul 2013 #212

After five hours of cross-examination they were unable to shake her basic facts. olegramps Jul 2013 #229

True Jim9090 Jul 2013 #231

go ahead and describe the misguidance of martin, as 'i believe' and 'i feel' tiny elvis Jul 2013 #104

"Trayvon was misguided" I disagree completely. I think Zimmerman was the aggressor and should go to hrmjustin Jul 2013 #108

so you think Zimmerman followed Martin behind the buildings to figure out where he was magical thyme Jul 2013 #113

I am convince some people have an agenda in supporting Zimmerman by wanting to accept his lumpy Jul 2013 #116

WHAT?? BigD_95 Jul 2013 #174

Pure speculation on your part. Vattel Jul 2013 #118

there is no proof that Martin approached Zimmerman's car, magical thyme Jul 2013 #120

"Zimmerman expressed relief when told by Serino that the whole thing was video-taped" Lurks Often Jul 2013 #123

pathological liars have no problem bluffing. magical thyme Jul 2013 #125

The inability of the State to explain away Zimmerman's injuries Lurks Often Jul 2013 #127

Self defense is not an argument if you are the instigator of the conflict. quakerboy Jul 2013 #183

Under Florida law you are wrong Lurks Often Jul 2013 #185

If she has a pipe and starts beating you in the ribs and on the head then yes it would be self Bonduel Jul 2013 #223

Pathological liars have no problem bluffing? That is really desperate. Vattel Jul 2013 #138

The simplest explanation in this case being quakerboy Jul 2013 #181

ZIMMERMANS INJURIES!!! are NOT significant injuries! Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #148

And you keep missing the point and what the law says. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #184

no, I'm not missing the point of the law.. that's not the point Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #190

Indeed, there were so many inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story, and his behavior calimary Jul 2013 #124

I am afraid I have to disagree with almost everything you said. Vattel Jul 2013 #136

Didn't Zimmerman have law enforcement training neohippie Jul 2013 #218

YES! Very good post brush Jul 2013 #195

Source? lolly Jul 2013 #156

Z's father was not and is not a judge. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #216

I don't think it's a myth as much as confusion over the term. Just Saying Jul 2013 #228

oh yeah, except for that whole "assaulting an officer with violence thing" niyad Jul 2013 #196

If he was on Ritalin it implies he was ADHD. defacto7 Jul 2013 #160

I think this is the way the jury will analyze the evidence too. nt Lex Jul 2013 #26

I agree. I don't understand how you can get out of your car and then claim self defense. Skeeter Barnes Jul 2013 #27

How do you know Zimmerman got out of his car after the 9-11 dispatcher's advice? Blue Bike Jul 2013 #28

The dispatcher told him not to follow. Whether he was in his truck at the time or not, he liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #35

Untrue. FBaggins Jul 2013 #188

moot point handmade34 Jul 2013 #36

Thanks... ReRe Jul 2013 #45

7:16 PM of the clock, not 7:16 into the call. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #217

Right... I typed in pm and then removed it as I thought pm was apparent.. ReRe Jul 2013 #225

If Zimmerman stopped following TRayvon at one point, Trayvon shoulnd't have attacked him Blue Bike Jul 2013 #60

no handmade34 Jul 2013 #70

Oh for fuck's sake. This shit again. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #140

This ^^^^ ctsnowman Jul 2013 #226

What reason would Trayvon possibly have had for an unprovoked attack with intent to kill? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #149

He said so in one of his statements Nevernose Jul 2013 #65

Actually, YOU CAN HEAR HIS HARD BREATHING as he's following him and which prompted the Ecumenist Jul 2013 #97

listen to Zimmerman's multiple accounts in his interviews neohippie Jul 2013 #219

I said this before DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #29

Pretty safe bet Flatulo Jul 2013 #128

A black or brown male is killed every hour in America ceonupe Jul 2013 #135

"What sick mind can rationalize such behavior as self-defense?" Jenoch Jul 2013 #30

If Martin unjustifiably attacked him, Vattel Jul 2013 #31

I'd like your opinion of post 34..... CatWoman Jul 2013 #42

wtf? if I could make monkeys fly out my heine elehhhhna Jul 2013 #101

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #141

Hmm, I guess you think that Martin did not attack Zimmerman and try to slam Vattel Jul 2013 #164

Right, the Martin kid was a killer on the hunt and Zimmerman was his prey. reusrename Jul 2013 #182

Pathetic Vattel Jul 2013 #230

what's your explanation for your theory? Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #151

Martin has a right to defend himself against a person chasing him in the dark with a gun uponit7771 Jul 2013 #191

Ditto yardwork Jul 2013 #32

Exactly! It's def as if Zimmerman sought to kill Trayvon Martin! hue Jul 2013 #34

I'm amazed by the contortions our legal system makes possible. AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #49

Zimmerman The Wizard Jul 2013 #51

I have not been following it very closely NewJeffCT Jul 2013 #53

Forensics is our last hope of him being convicted of something. The testimony from the defense Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #67

thanks for the update NewJeffCT Jul 2013 #96

Martin's past has not been allowed in at all to date. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #122

A lot will depend on the exact instructions given to the jury wpelb Jul 2013 #55

The Zimmerman Coward will not testify. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2013 #56

Well said. I have NO sympathy for him. mbperrin Jul 2013 #58

Well said. historylovr Jul 2013 #64

The young woman who testified this afternoon talking about the home invasion Grammy23 Jul 2013 #66

I wonder PADemD Jul 2013 #102

Just one thing brush Jul 2013 #201

I thought two arrests had already been made in the home invasions case? Lucinda Jul 2013 #142

I think he is going to get at least manslaughter and totodeinhere Jul 2013 #68

I, too, hope he is convicted of at least manslaughter. I won't hold my breath Grammy23 Jul 2013 #71

Stand your ground.... TNNurse Jul 2013 #72

welcome to DU. Excellent point. elehhhhna Jul 2013 #106

What sick mind... DirtyDawg Jul 2013 #74

He'll walk. O-Town Blue Jul 2013 #75

Unless Florida law permits lesser charges... bluedeathray Jul 2013 #76

Hey, the guy I attacked fought back. That's not fair. tclambert Jul 2013 #78

In a nut shell!!!! n/t etherealtruth Jul 2013 #117

And it amazes me... Jim9090 Jul 2013 #80

So what??! The Dispatch didn't say don't get out of your car she indicated she didn't need Z to... uponit7771 Jul 2013 #85

You missed my point Jim9090 Jul 2013 #92

I would agree that it is hard to fight with one arm behind your back... kentuck Jul 2013 #95

Completely fucking wrong. Zoeisright Jul 2013 #143

you're not seeing it from the perspective of a racist gun humper Skittles Jul 2013 #147

The evidence does not support brush Jul 2013 #205

Zimmerman never said he was attacked "at his car". Captain Stern Jul 2013 #119

I didn't say I wasn't following the trial - I said I wasn't commenting much on it... kentuck Jul 2013 #91

it is NOT about Zimmerman's contention hfojvt Jul 2013 #162

So he was already following him? kentuck Jul 2013 #177

whether it makes him more innocent or less hfojvt Jul 2013 #213

welcome to hell n00b hfojvt Jul 2013 #163

But he did follow Martin brush Jul 2013 #203

GZ is a first class moron amuse bouche Jul 2013 #84

92% of the 15,000 Soundman Jul 2013 #87

the site which is associated with that station Divine Discontent Jul 2013 #132

There is no sense Soundman Jul 2013 #186

Martin was also a minor. Zimmerman was an adult male. anneboleyn Jul 2013 #88

Thank you AnneBoleyn, EXACTLY what I've been saying all along. Ecumenist Jul 2013 #98

If justice isn't found in the courtroom Cheap_Trick Jul 2013 #89

Just curious... Jim9090 Jul 2013 #105

That is how I see it too KT2000 Jul 2013 #94

I am equally astounded etherealtruth Jul 2013 #107

That's the crux of it. But for Zimmerman's playing cop, a kid would be alive. DirkGently Jul 2013 #111

Sorry, zimmy's story does not track. Think about this brush Jul 2013 #206

This is why I am hopeful for some guilty verdict. nt boston bean Jul 2013 #112

Zimmerman is going to rightfully escape being convicted neffernin Jul 2013 #121

What if Zimmerman didn't have a gun? marlin56 Jul 2013 #129

yeah, the ex-sanford PD chief said he wouldn't have arrested GZ if he Divine Discontent Jul 2013 #134

you make a great point BigD_95 Jul 2013 #175

Armed man shoots and kills unarmed man. B Calm Jul 2013 #144

except it was armed man shoots and kills unarmed minor. niyad Jul 2013 #198

If my comments are incorrect: kentuck Jul 2013 #150

One thing we know locks Jul 2013 #153

The Prosecution Has Been Brain Dead In This Trial DallasNE Jul 2013 #154

His sleazy lawyers are pretty damn good. tofuandbeer Jul 2013 #157

It's a payday for them either way. Kennah Jul 2013 #166

I have no sympathy for Zimmerman either. He stalked akbacchus_BC Jul 2013 #159

I've been amazed the same way. crim son Jul 2013 #167

Legal opinion is that he will go free. Kablooie Jul 2013 #168

If Zimmerman is not convicted Enthusiast Jul 2013 #169

I agree. It's unfathomable. myrna minx Jul 2013 #170

This message was self-deleted by its author anobserver2 Jul 2013 #171

This and going against the suggestion of the 911 dispatch is a GOOD reason for man slaughter uponit7771 Jul 2013 #194

You repeated the unproved assertion that he disobeyed the dispatcher Blue Bike Jul 2013 #209

You just said without proof that Zimmerman did not do what the dispatcher told him Blue Bike Jul 2013 #211

because everything you said he did was not against the law BigD_95 Jul 2013 #172

Repeal the "Stand Your Ground" law. kentuck Jul 2013 #178

zimmerman is not using a stand your ground defense Travis_0004 Jul 2013 #180

But it seems the NRA is very interested in this case... kentuck Jul 2013 #187

Neither is someone swinging their arms wildly in a crowded public place...IE the reason we have man uponit7771 Jul 2013 #192

Shooting and killing people is very much against the law. But you know that. enki23 Jul 2013 #224

GZ didn't even own his condo! 4 more years Jul 2013 #202

in my opinion hockeynut57 Jul 2013 #204

"Can I borrow your doll?" live love laugh Jul 2013 #210

It's Seminole County, Florida. Baitball Blogger Jul 2013 #220

This one really is a litmus test, a bright line separating the filth from everyone else. enki23 Jul 2013 #221

K & R ctsnowman Jul 2013 #227

Since it is obvious no one here knows the facts, I will delete this post. kentuck Jul 2013 #232