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BainsBane

(57,757 posts)

160. Evidence on SYG that gunnners willfully ignore

Reply to GreenStormCloud (Original post)

Tue Jul 23, 2013, 07:53 PM

Jul 2013

because it doesn't justify killing. I wonder at what point in American society being pro-2A turned into justifying murder? It seems a recent development to me, but perhaps I'm simply naive.

http://blog.metrotrends.org/2012/08/stand-ground-laws-worsen-racial-disparities/

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/07/14/stand-your-ground-increases-racial-bias/

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jul/13/study-stand-your-ground-laws-dont-deter-crime-to/

National Bureau of Economic Reseach: SYG results in significant increase in justifiable homicides (after all, the point of the laws are to get away with murder) http://www.nber.org/papers/w18187.pdf?new_window=1

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/stand-your-ground-task-force-rick-scott-trayvon

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/stand-your-ground-task-force-rick-scott-trayvon

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In FL there are Blacks who shoot Whites and use SYG and get off. [View all] GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 OP

I'm gratified to learn that anyone in Florida can shoot first Orrex Jul 2013 #1

Exactly Peaceplace80 Jul 2013 #2

Oh, I too feel better about the SYG law in FL now! rdharma Jul 2013 #3

Warning shots are illegal. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #4

I heard this same explanation on a radio show. Raine1967 Jul 2013 #6

I'm afraid he is! rdharma Jul 2013 #11

Here's a link Lurks Often Jul 2013 #12

SO ...... she had something against ceiling plaster, eh? rdharma Jul 2013 #14

Thank you for being an example of a poster no one should believe. Lurks Often Jul 2013 #73

Could not agree more Hangingon Jul 2013 #78

LOL! The gungeron has called out their posse, eh?!!!! rdharma Jul 2013 #81

She probably didn't want to go to jail for murder. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #85

Thank-you, our resident legal expert! rdharma Jul 2013 #88

Thank You. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #118

I missed it too. She confronted him a couple months AFTER the shooting incident. rdharma Jul 2013 #125

No, he isn't. X_Digger Jul 2013 #17

she wasnt supposed to go near them she was out on bond and was supposed to stay away from them leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #26

Link to that info? rdharma Jul 2013 #91

Here is your link: GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #99

From the link above: X_Digger Jul 2013 #100

This was AFTER THE SHOOTING! rdharma Jul 2013 #106

Irrelevant. Statute of limitations had not run. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #109

Had nothing to do with statute of limitations. rdharma Jul 2013 #122

I will research it better later. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #132

here's the link to that info (minus the rolling eyes smilie) leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #229

Wow. I have bookmarked that for the next time someone brings her up. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #231

She was also the Rick Scott special prosecutor gejohnston Jul 2013 #237

did you listen ro the interview? leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #238

It's a known fact about this case. Mojo Electro Jul 2013 #137

BULL SHIT. Go away. Raine1967 Jul 2013 #203

Of course, rather than a rational response you delete_bush Jul 2013 #220

Well that was well thought out. Mojo Electro Jul 2013 #235

elitist snobery leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #239

re: nothing in common NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #218

Do you get the fact that firing warning shots Just Saying Jul 2013 #19

Actually you hear support for such laws here from gun control advocates hack89 Jul 2013 #24

See post 17 above. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #31

Show us the link! rdharma Jul 2013 #93

Here is a story I found... npk Jul 2013 #98

She didn't have any sort of restraining order against her at the time of the shooting. rdharma Jul 2013 #131

She had a restraining order against him Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #139

She was on bond pending trial for the shooting incident a few months earlier. rdharma Jul 2013 #146

Maybe he used their children to lure/bait her into coming to the house........ TheDebbieDee Jul 2013 #227

See post #229. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #232

I'm not going to listen to a 29:00 minute audio clip of an interview TheDebbieDee Jul 2013 #236

So she should have hired mikeysnot Jul 2013 #111

There are other threads to discuss the Zimmerman case. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #114

I just stated she should have hired mikeysnot Jul 2013 #230

So its perfectly legal to shoot and kill someone but Drale Jul 2013 #79

The difference is in the intent. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #92

I disagree entirely Drale Jul 2013 #95

The law is not what you want it to be, but what it is. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #104

Great explanation. X_Digger Jul 2013 #112

It is a paraphrase from one of Massad Ayoob's books. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #117

Like following a neighbor's son home from 7-11 LanternWaste Jul 2013 #103

There are many other threads to discuss the Zimmerman case. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #105

Bull-Fucking-Shit this thread of yours we're in right now isn't because of the Zimmerman case. nt Electric Monk Jul 2013 #110

I am discussing SYG statistics, not Zimmerman. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #115

Question for you then Marrah_G Jul 2013 #133

Each case is different. No two are identical. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #140

So none? Marrah_G Jul 2013 #169

You are unlikely to find an exact parellel between any two cases. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #173

into the ceiling of her garage? VanillaRhapsody Jul 2013 #134

See post 99. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #142

I thought she went into their attached garage JimDandy Jul 2013 #180

She went to the garage, got the gun, returned to the house, fired the shot. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #191

We're saying the same thing... JimDandy Jul 2013 #196

excpt the evidence doesnt show a warning shot. she fired at him and missd. the shot went thru the leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #23

What evidence was that? rdharma Jul 2013 #96

Here are pics.. X_Digger Jul 2013 #108

here's your linik leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #228

I wish people would do some research before repeating this crap Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #51

She was also given a plea deal for 3 years prison time and turned it down davidn3600 Jul 2013 #62

Yep Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #64

Link? rdharma Jul 2013 #97

It probably didn't help her cause much after her attorney said she fired a warning shot into the AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #128

so basically its legal for anyone to murder anyone in florida......wow bowens43 Jul 2013 #5

You may notice that there are a lot of convictions. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #25

One might think in non-fatal cases like these are, there might be 2 witnesses, not just 1 uppityperson Jul 2013 #7

I'll be the first one to recommend this. William769 Jul 2013 #8

oh bull. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #9

Thank you. gollygee Jul 2013 #15

How is the OP pro-Zimmerman? It says nothing at all about Z, TM, or the trial. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #20

You're being coy gollygee Jul 2013 #30

I take it that you don't like the facts. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #35

Yes, they certainly seem to have a vested interest in not understanding. Because, guns.... Electric Monk Jul 2013 #39

Another person who can't discuss the numbers has been heard from. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #42

The numbers have been addressed, Uncle Jimbo. See reply #9. Electric Monk Jul 2013 #48

See post 27, below. It shows the errors of post 17. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #58

Thanks for blowing this OP out of the water. hay rick Jul 2013 #16

You are using a very small statistical sample. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #18

it's the *same* sample as in the OP. and it's not a 'sample,' it's the entire universe of syg cases HiPointDem Jul 2013 #59

Percentages calculated on small numbers are misleading. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #61

not any more 'misleading' than absolute numbers where there are a 'small number of cases'. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #65

Absolute numbers give the entire picture. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #69

no; the percentages and absolute numbers give the *same* fucking picture. duh. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #72

You can't argue facts with this one... RetroLounge Jul 2013 #149

Here is the problem with that analysis hack89 Jul 2013 #27

no more problematic than using the absolute numbers. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #70

The difference is a single shooting. One. hack89 Jul 2013 #75

the difference is not just 'one,' because the difference is not just about the small # of b/w or HiPointDem Jul 2013 #94

I just showed you that whites have a higher conviction rates than blacks hack89 Jul 2013 #101

Nonsense. hay rick Jul 2013 #166

My concern is with the racial component in cross-racial shootings. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #172

By "concern" you don't mean actual concern. hay rick Jul 2013 #182

The numbers are close to even each way. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #193

And yet black shooters are favored over white shooters. hack89 Jul 2013 #181

SYG definitely favors the shooter. hay rick Jul 2013 #185

That same system disproportionately exonerates black men. hack89 Jul 2013 #188

If the victim is black, whites have a much better chance of being exonerated. hay rick Jul 2013 #223

i heard the %age as 35% of white on black syg goes free compared to 3% blk on why syg leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #28

Percentages calculated on small numbers are misleading. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #33

excpt you dont know how they came to these number and neither do i i heard this on the randi rhodes leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #37

I gave you the link. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #40

thanks .... nt leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #43

yes, i do. the op used the same tampa bay times sample. the op cherry picks it. and it's HiPointDem Jul 2013 #60

Since it is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE of SYG, then I didn't cherry pick. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #68

you took only b/w & w/b. which as you yourself acknowledge is a handful of cases. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #90

Because I am pointing out that the number are very similar for cross-racial shootings. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #107

oh hipoint , i was replying to green point's post and i was refering to the 35% to 3% numbers from leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #76

Thank you for ADDRESSING THE NUMBERS uppityperson Jul 2013 #116

He didn't address the numbers, he used percentages to distort them. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #120

Uh huh. Annoys you when someone else does it? uppityperson Jul 2013 #183

Gun nuts make me sick. nt countingbluecars Jul 2013 #10

Relevance? Chan790 Jul 2013 #13

Many here have claimed that SYG can't be used by blacks. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #47

oh I was already aware of its use by people of non-white ethnicities. Chan790 Jul 2013 #80

Man, you're fighting a losing battle here 7962 Jul 2013 #259

Also from the Tampa Bay Times: Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #21

It's legal murder gollygee Jul 2013 #29

They why were so many convicted? GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #36

Which is to be scared gollygee Jul 2013 #41

Nope. You can't shoot all the witnesses either. That won't fly. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #45

It is a get out of jail free card gollygee Jul 2013 #46

So there are criteria that have to be met. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #52

It is a get out of jail card if there are no witnesses gollygee Jul 2013 #53

Lots of murders get convicted with no eyewitness Lee-Lee Jul 2013 #57

Well that's the thing about making up stories gollygee Jul 2013 #63

The law says you have to REASONABLY fear for loss of life or serious bodily injury davidn3600 Jul 2013 #49

Anyone can come up with a story where it sounds reasonable to be afraid gollygee Jul 2013 #50

Yes and that is what many people claim when they commit a murder davidn3600 Jul 2013 #54

Notice that there are a lot of convictions. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #55

There were probably witnesses in those cases gollygee Jul 2013 #56

That is speculation. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #89

Straight out of Jimcrow era arguments ..... pkdu Jul 2013 #206

That's where the DEFENSE was SYG. SYG language is used in jury instructions even when defense blm Jul 2013 #22

Excellent point BainsBane Jul 2013 #190

anything to justify your sickness Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #32

So you have no argument against the numbers. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #34

I didn't even analyze the numbers. It is a stupid premise. the thing I care about? Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #38

I'd do my best to rationalize a crap law and deflect the attention to that too... LanternWaste Jul 2013 #44

Confirmation Bias Man says: "Remember, kids, posts like this aren't race-baiting!" Robb Jul 2013 #66

ROFL gollygee Jul 2013 #67

Another poster who can't discuss the numbers has been heard from. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #71

Do you need to have it explained to you? Robb Jul 2013 #82

actually, those folk DO need it explained Skittles Jul 2013 #156

The numbers speak for themselves. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #164

Today you are not a dingbat :) Marrah_G Jul 2013 #74

LittleGreenFootballs Trajan Jul 2013 #77

Did you say "Little Green Footballs"? Is that the source of their info? rdharma Jul 2013 #84

I gave the link. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #86

Were any of these fatalities? surrealAmerican Jul 2013 #83

The link has details of each event. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #87

So if someone should shoot you using SYG your family upaloopa Jul 2013 #102

Depends upon if it was a valid SYG. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #113

You could be doing nothing and be killed using SYG upaloopa Jul 2013 #240

REPEAL SYG HockeyMom Jul 2013 #119

Why shouldn't people be able to defend themselves? N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #121

In American there are whites who kill blacks who get the death peanlty BainsBane Jul 2013 #123

I am discussing FL SYG statistics, not the DP. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #136

The application of both is the same BainsBane Jul 2013 #141

And whites get killed too. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #144

11 to 1 is the ratio BainsBane Jul 2013 #147

I AM looking at ALL FL cases of SYG. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #150

235 cases BainsBane Jul 2013 #154

My interest is in cross-racial SYG shootings. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #157

What you are doing is denying facts BainsBane Jul 2013 #145

I have posted facts. You just don't like them. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #148

I posted facts BainsBane Jul 2013 #152

I think my computer has a virus etherealtruth Jul 2013 #124

Amazing, isn't it. Argh! nt babylonsister Jul 2013 #129

I need to quit reading here tonight. etherealtruth Jul 2013 #130

I try not to babylonsister Jul 2013 #135

sad but true nt NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #219

I totally read the title of this thread wrong JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #126

Gawd this is insane! ananda Jul 2013 #127

SYG is racist BainsBane Jul 2013 #138

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #143

If she wishes not to be bothered countingbluecars Jul 2013 #151

Has nothing to do with SYG. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #155

And jury instructions? rdharma Jul 2013 #158

I posted results. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #159

Can you give the post #? rdharma Jul 2013 #186

I am only looking at results, not jury instructions. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #194

I was talking about the Zimmerman trial jury instructions. nt rdharma Jul 2013 #199

I don't want to derail this thread by discussion of Z. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #201

It's all about SYG....... no? rdharma Jul 2013 #215

Wrongo. 99Forever Jul 2013 #153

My interest is in cross-racial SYG shootings. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #162

Your "data" is incomplete. 99Forever Jul 2013 #165

Take that up with the Tampa Times. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #168

Well shit... 99Forever Jul 2013 #175

Evidence on SYG that gunnners willfully ignore BainsBane Jul 2013 #160

An increase in justifiable homicides is not a bad thing. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #167

"Some of them folks just needs a killin." Wow, is your world view ever fucked up. Electric Monk Jul 2013 #170

If you think that violent criminals are only doing it for money then you are naive. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #178

I think your world view is seriously screwed up. kwassa Jul 2013 #224

What about dead innocent teenagers? countingbluecars Jul 2013 #171

Legal concealed carry saves more innocent lives than it takes. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #177

NRA and Texas bullshit countingbluecars Jul 2013 #179

So you can't dispute the numbers, you throw insults. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #197

what a joke! Execution capital of the US! Texas has no credibility. kwassa Jul 2013 #222

"Florida's Stand Your Ground Defense More Likely To Succeed If Victim Is Black: Study" DevonRex Jul 2013 #161

Oops. Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #163

There's actually a better article on it, too. the stats are even worse DevonRex Jul 2013 #174

I watched a trial today on Tru TV Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #176

Of course. DevonRex Jul 2013 #184

Can you remember more details. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #189

He showed the gun in the holster and then walked away. Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #198

Witnesses claim he drew the gun first. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #200

Uh I watched the trial this morning Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #205

Here is the Tampa Bay link. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #214

He pulled the gun from the holster Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #216

In this thread, Dooley is all I am going to talk about. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #225

why 20yrs for marissa alexander? c588415 Jul 2013 #187

We debated this in depth above davidn3600 Jul 2013 #192

post a link on your source of info concerning M A c588415 Jul 2013 #204

Multiple links were posted in the discussion up thread. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #208

What about Zimmerman's criminal record? c588415 Jul 2013 #244

It wasn't a warning shot. She was shooting at him and missed. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #245

It was a warning shot according to all of the links I have researched via GOOGLE c588415 Jul 2013 #247

See posts 229, 99, 108, 128. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #248

Marissa was in a abusive relationship c588415 Jul 2013 #249

See posts 229, 99, 108 & 128. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #254

Z's father was never a judge. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #202

Is there a Z fan club somewhere? Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #207

This message was self-deleted by its author GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #209

Uh huh. Annoys you when someone else does it? uppityperson Jul 2013 #210

Never posted that. Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #211

You are right. You didn't post that. c588415 did. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #212

So of course because of one poster, you had to start a thread about it. Kingofalldems Jul 2013 #213

Actually, this is funny, he is saying two wrongs make a right in his book! Rex Jul 2013 #251

there seems to be one right here on DU nt NoGOPZone Jul 2013 #217

Maybe we could request a forum davidpdx Jul 2013 #226

Careful, you will get accosted by someone swearing Rex Jul 2013 #252

In Matters of Stereotype and Emotion, On the Road Jul 2013 #195

Excellent info...SYG like the 2A is for everyone. ileus Jul 2013 #221

Reading is fundamental. GeorgeGist Jul 2013 #233

Blacks are mostly shot by other blacks. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #234

Zimmerman wasn't justified - those other 143 are suspect lame54 Jul 2013 #241

That is how the law has ruled. You don't get to overturn those rulings. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #257

My point is to dump the law - black white green or plaid - it's bad lame54 Jul 2013 #258

Is it just me or did the line-up of SYG faces look pretty sketchy? Generic Other Jul 2013 #242

This stat has nothing to do with the Trayvon Martin murder. totodeinhere Jul 2013 #243

It isn't supposed to. I am discussing cross-racial SYG shootings. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #246

So two wrongs equal a right in your book. Rex Jul 2013 #250

This thread isn't about Z. It is about over 200 SYG shootings. N/T GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #255

How 'bout this... get some fucking pepper spray or mace if you need to buy some time for a retreat Ed Suspicious Jul 2013 #253

There are big problems with relying on pepper spray as an only defense. GreenStormCloud Jul 2013 #256