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enlightenment

(8,830 posts)

48. Why?

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 10:40 AM

Aug 2013

Because the genocide of Jews (and the mentally impaired - and Gypsies - and Gays) by the Nazis was somehow different because of the word?

The primary definition of holocaust is slaughter on a mass scale - usually by fire. Originally it referred to burnt offerings to the gods. It existed before the term genocide (1944), so it's not surprising that it was attached to the event - but that doesn't mean it can't ever be used again.

Nothing changes what the Nazis did, but attempting to sanctify a WORD isn't going to make it somehow better. Suggesting it is offensive to use it for anything but the Nazi holocaust is trying to do exactly that - sanctify it.

If you - and Dipsydoodle - want to make an issue over Pab's use of the term, no one can stop you, but it's not a very logical argument. If you want to go for technical accuracy, then it could be argued that genocide (the coordinated annihilation of a given group of people) is more accurate - because we do not know what form that might take. Certainly the comment that the hearts of gays should be burnt brings "holocaust" to mind, though.

You're right. Words matter - but in this case, not in the way you think. Yes, "genocide" would be a more accurate term - but suggesting that "holocaust" can NEVER be used for anything except for the one case is ridiculous.

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Can anyone truly deny we're on the path to a new Holocaust? [View all] Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 OP

Yow, especially considering the source Posteritatis Aug 2013 #1

The Olympics should be pulled from Russia, Russia is clearly moving on a path back in time. n/t RKP5637 Aug 2013 #36

Russia has something of a history where mass murder is concerned. Oakenshield Aug 2013 #2

K & R for more exposure. LeftofObama Aug 2013 #3

there is always a genocide ongoing. cali Aug 2013 #4

The Holocast was a specific historic event against which there are no valid comparisons. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #5

Disregarding size, the 1994 Rwandan Genocide. Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #6

And just so we don't forget there was Cambodia and of course Uganda (the Ibo). 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #11

yes, comparisons should be made, but dipsy is quite right cali Aug 2013 #15

I half way think you're right, but the other half says no 1-Old-Man Aug 2013 #30

It hasn't. Not by historians. The Holocaust refers to a discrete historical event cali Aug 2013 #35

I think the word holocaust should be retired from the English language. leveymg Aug 2013 #44

Before it came to be associated with the Nazis, "holocaust" referred to NuclearDem Aug 2013 #148

So you're saying that the expression "nuclear holocaust" is invalid? Doctor_J Aug 2013 #52

uh, no. I'm saying that "The Holocaust" is a specific reference to the Nazi genocide cali Aug 2013 #53

The other popular meaning of "state-sponsored extermination of a group" is clear enough. (nt) Posteritatis Aug 2013 #56

The word "holocaust" dates from the mid-13th century MNBrewer Aug 2013 #114

Which started with, wait for it.... dbackjon Aug 2013 #121

+1. Nicely put. n/t Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #81

You are also disregarding the expression used - The Holocaust. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #13

Ah okay. I misread this entire OP and your response. Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #18

The denial Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #32

no it doesn't. It would be offensive to deny that they're genocide. It's accurate cali Aug 2013 #37

So one of the groups victimized in the Holocaust Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #41

huh? Are you suggesting that there's an ongoing genocide in Russia targeting cali Aug 2013 #49

"Are you suggesting that there's an ongoing genocide in Russia targeting GLBT folks?" Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #63

making that claim isn't evidence. cali Aug 2013 #78

oh, and claiming that YOU frickin' KNOW that there will be a genocide cali Aug 2013 #38

I frickin' KNOW Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #40

horseshit. Find one single human rights group that designates genocide against cali Aug 2013 #50

You have obviously never studied the history of the Holocaust. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #62

Actually, I have. Extensively. cali Aug 2013 #71

Prove it. Creideiki Aug 2013 #83

prove what? cali Aug 2013 #85

This is not about snowden LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #113

That is today's DU dbackjon Aug 2013 #124

Concern over Gay rights in Russia Vanje Aug 2013 #92

+++ 1,000 +++ n/t RKP5637 Aug 2013 #39

Why? enlightenment Aug 2013 #48

Ah yes, the "how dare anyone suggest similarities?" school of denial Posteritatis Aug 2013 #55

Your continued defense of Russia, Putin and the GAY HOLOCAUST dbackjon Aug 2013 #122

Comparing genocides requires agreement on the basis of the comparisons HereSince1628 Aug 2013 #28

^^This^^ leftstreet Aug 2013 #51

I keep seeing ^^This^^ dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #57

^^That^^ leftstreet Aug 2013 #58

Oh. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #59

He did say a "new" Holocaust. Although he did use the upper case H DevonRex Aug 2013 #66

WE WERE VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE HERE, Zorra Aug 2013 #116

The fact you were the victims of persecution as were the Roma. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #118

That proves it BillStein Aug 2013 #119

Yep. Read: "You were imprisoned, tortured, experimented on, and murdered by the Nazis during the Zorra Aug 2013 #137

Never forget Capt. Obvious Aug 2013 #131

This message was self-deleted by its author happynewyear Aug 2013 #152

But he did not say The Holocaust. He said a New Holocaust. DevonRex Aug 2013 #160

So very wrong. As a child I was taken to Yad Vashim, Shoah Memorial in Jerusalem Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #164

On top of which, gays were never "liberated" from the camps Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #129

That's sick. Can you imagine how crushed, devastated, those poor gay internees must have been? Zorra Aug 2013 #138

Paragraph 175 of the German Criminal Code. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #140

false, there has been a genocide or ethnic cleansing every year since 1945... Deep13 Aug 2013 #128

I would not say every year nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #155

some of them took a long time. Deep13 Aug 2013 #156

I know, when I was in college we just did the big ones nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #158

You do know the Holocaust included more than Jews right? nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #151

Of course we're not, don't be so stupid. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #7

Russia has gay rights laws? Fumesucker Aug 2013 #9

In Russia, it's currently not legal to murder gay people. In some countries, it is. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #14

It's not so much wrapped up in religion in Russia, not so sure about Uganda Fumesucker Aug 2013 #20

Isn't it? My impression was that it was at least partly a post-communist Orthodox resurgence. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #22

I think the perception is that it's more national machismo (good phrase) Fumesucker Aug 2013 #23

Could be and could also be regional. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #25

In Russia they just don't give a shit. nt DevonRex Aug 2013 #69

so nothing to see, everybody move along arely staircase Aug 2013 #73

How did you get to there from "not a prelude to genocide"? Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #79

Oddly enough, they are a lot easier to notice when you are the one in the crosshairs Fumesucker Aug 2013 #8

oddly enough, if genocide happens in the Congo, no one ever notices cali Aug 2013 #12

No one? Fumesucker Aug 2013 #17

oh, I think you know what I mean. cali Aug 2013 #19

Oddly enough, Congo isn't hosting the Olympics. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #33

oddly enough, they *are* trading partners of ours. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #153

Yeah, but they're just black people JNelson6563 Aug 2013 #47

But they're black. bravenak Aug 2013 #54

Russia is a conservative hatehole. nt Zorra Aug 2013 #10

Quite novel dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #21

Stalin bred it, and Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church feed it. Zorra Aug 2013 #26

The USSR was a fascist state that used the rhetoric of communism Scootaloo Aug 2013 #29

Why? dbackjon Aug 2013 #125

Jesus, the ignorance is breath taking nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #133

yes. if you're saying that there is a coming genocide in Russia of gay people cali Aug 2013 #16

Coming? Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #64

link. one link from any reputable rights organization that confirms that a genocide has started in cali Aug 2013 #72

8 stages of genocide undeterred Aug 2013 #24

Just because genocide is usually preceded by x does not mean x usually leads to genocide. Donald Ian Rankin Aug 2013 #45

Oh Lord, I hope note. I hadn't extrapolated down that path while considering where it's being done Fire Walk With Me Aug 2013 #27

It sure smells that way to me. LuvNewcastle Aug 2013 #31

Some people have to hate and kill and purify in their warped minds... the MO stays the same, but RKP5637 Aug 2013 #34

Do you have more than this snippet to support your claim? Avalux Aug 2013 #42

You're not truly aware of the scope of the law Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #43

Fighting hyperbole with hyperbole. JNelson6563 Aug 2013 #46

In 1936 the Olympic committee went to Germany to investigate because many wanted a boycott of Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #165

perhaps if we were to use upper case and lower case h for holocaust dembotoz Aug 2013 #60

apparently the syntax police want to reserve holocaust for Nazi Germany, and genocide for Doctor_J Aug 2013 #67

so if it is a lesser genocide you are lesser tortured and dead? dembotoz Aug 2013 #143

I think this is why the Russian Olympics debate is important. AngryOldDem Aug 2013 #61

oh for god's sake. the right wing has been on the move all over europe, esp. in the states HiPointDem Aug 2013 #65

Pab is GAY. How dare you. nt DevonRex Aug 2013 #68

You owe Pab an apology theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #70

how's that? HiPointDem Aug 2013 #76

I am offended by your remark! The law was just recently passed so that is why we are discussing it! hrmjustin Aug 2013 #74

bullshit. essentially the same laws have been in force in 10 russian provinces starting in (if i HiPointDem Aug 2013 #75

I am gay and I always care what my LGBT borthers and sisters are going through and so does th OP! hrmjustin Aug 2013 #77

that may be but it doesn't address my post. neither you or the op were posting about lfbt HiPointDem Aug 2013 #80

I tend not to start OPs on the issue but I have postered on LGBT issues in many countries. hrmjustin Aug 2013 #82

& as to the provincial laws? & as to the fact that russian courts have *not* interpreted these HiPointDem Aug 2013 #84

Yes but the laws are on the books. They may not have started to enforce them but they put them on hrmjustin Aug 2013 #87

yes, the laws are on the books, and i totally agree that they can be used heinously. but i HiPointDem Aug 2013 #93

The point is that more an more LGBT people in Russia are being marginalized and we feel the need to hrmjustin Aug 2013 #94

...... Vanje Aug 2013 #97

no, it's not about snowden. but the reason there are so many ops about russia's laws *is* snowden. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #99

Nope Vanje Aug 2013 #103

YEP. The reason this issue has suddenly become so prominent is because of snowden. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #106

Ridiculous! Vanje Aug 2013 #108

ridiculous yourself. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #109

this thread is turning into something more than a little bizarre. cali Aug 2013 #88

No, HiPointDem, as usual is minimizing Russia's hateful bigotry DevonRex Aug 2013 #90

OK, but the op is minimizing genocide and to point that out is to risk cali Aug 2013 #91

He's warning of the beginning of a NEW holocaust intentionally DevonRex Aug 2013 #107

Russians were 52% FOR Gay rights in recent years Vanje Aug 2013 #96

it's not illegal to speak about gay rights. and 'in recent years' = last year. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #101

Your article is a year old. Vanje Aug 2013 #104

that's what i said. that poll was LAST YEAR. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #105

Erosion of gay rights in Russia has been a major topic in DU's LGBT group. Vanje Aug 2013 #95

Bull. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #130

You denial of the recent problems dbackjon Aug 2013 #126

official calls? link? HiPointDem Aug 2013 #142

Do you not read the posts dbackjon Aug 2013 #144

give me a link. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #146

You want a link? Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #147

you talked about 'official calls,' by which i understand representatives of the state speaking in HiPointDem Aug 2013 #150

Holocaust... maybe not. But cause for world-wide concern, for sure. Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #86

Russia and Uganda both have something in common. Initech Aug 2013 #89

Are we allowed to be outraged over the law in Russia and still like Snowden? liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #98

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOWDEN. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #100

I was just clarifying. Because there are people on DU who will do that. I'm glad to hear you are not liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #102

Did you SEE the word Snowden ANYWHERE in the post? DevonRex Aug 2013 #110

Absolutely *yes*. n/t Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #112

I love strawman in the morning nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #136

No. Anyone who watched MSNBC last night couldn't possibly DevonRex Aug 2013 #111

I hope not, but I'm afraid it may not be impossible..... AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #115

Wow, Pab, judging by this thread, it's way worse than we knew. Zorra Aug 2013 #117

No, you can't dbackjon Aug 2013 #120

"you are just a paid Obama supporter" Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #123

How exactly do we hook you up to the grid? nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #134

Not me. Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #139

It could be a magic/Econ system nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #141

What is happening in Russia now should set off warning bells for anyone who has studied genocide stevenleser Aug 2013 #127

The real warning bells came Pab Sungenis Aug 2013 #132

Not sure if we are on the path to a new genocide yet... nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #135

it's scary how quickly modern society can revert with respect to civil, gay, women's rights Liberal_in_LA Aug 2013 #145

you have some people mstinamotorcity2 Aug 2013 #149

Even the Nazis didn't arrest Jesse Owens at the 1936 games. That was during the 3rd Reich. muntrv Aug 2013 #154

The Nazis actually announced in advance of the 36 Olympics that their anti homosexual laws Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #157

YES. Obviously, you have no concept jazzimov Aug 2013 #159

Since gays were slaughtered in it, I'd say he has a "concept." DevonRex Aug 2013 #161

Kick Vanje Aug 2013 #162

Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly -- we have our own Kisilevs right here Hekate Aug 2013 #163