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Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
113. Dictionary definitions of a political philosophy as complex as anarchy will not suffice.
Wed Sep 4, 2013, 08:38 PM
Sep 2013

"Anarchy is order!" ~ Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

George Woodcock, an anarchist historian, writes:

Anarchism

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy


ANARCHISM, a social philosophy that rejects authoritarian government and maintains that voluntary institutions are best suited to express man’s natural social tendencies. Historically the word “anarchist,” which derives from the Greek an archos, meaning “no government,” appears first to have been used pejoratively to indicate one who denies all law and wishes to promote chaos. It was used in this sense against the Levelers during the English Civil War and during the French Revolution by most parties in criticizing those who stood to the left of them along the political spectrum. The first use of the word as an approbatory description of a positive philosophy appears to have been by Pierre Joseph Proudhon when, in his Qu’est-ce-que la propriete? (What Is Property?, Paris, 1840), he described himself as an anarchist because he believed that political organization based on authority should be replaced by social and economic organization based on voluntary contractual agreement.

Nevertheless, the two uses of the word have survived together and have caused confusion in discussing anarchism, which to some has appeared a doctrine of destruction and to others a benevolent doctrine based on a faith in the innate goodness of man. There has been further confusion through the association of anarchism with nihilism and terrorism. In fact, anarchism, which is based on faith in natural law and justice, stands at the opposite pole to nihilism, which denies all moral laws. Similarly, there is no necessary connection between anarchism, which is a social philosophy, and terrorism, which is a political means occasionally used by individual anarchists but also by actionists belonging to a wide variety of movements that have nothing in common with anarchism.

Anarchism aims at the utmost possible freedom compatible with social life, in the belief that voluntary cooperation by responsible individuals is not merely more just and equitable but is also, in the long run, more harmonious and ordered in its effects than authoritarian government. Anarchist philosophy has taken many forms, none of which can be defined as an orthodoxy, and its exponents have deliberately cultivated the idea that it is an open and mutable doctrine. However, all its variants combine a criticism of existing governmental societies, a vision of a future libertarian society that might replace them, and a projected way of attaining this society by means outside normal political practice. Anarchism in general rejects the state. It denies the value of democratic procedures because they are based on majority rule and on the delegation of the responsibility that the individual should retain. It criticizes Utopian philosophies because they aim at a static “ideal” society. It inclines toward internationalism and federalism, and, while the views of anarchists on questions of economic organization vary greatly, it may be said that all of them reject what William Godwin called accumulated property.

Attempts have been made by anarchist apologists to trace the origins of their point of view in primitive nongovernmental societies. There has also been a tendency to detect anarchist pioneers among a wide variety of teachers and writers who, for various religious or philosophical reasons, have criticized the institution of government, have rejected political activity, or have placed a great value on individual freedom. In this way such varied ancestors have been found as Lao-Tse, Zeno, Spartacus, Etienne de La Boetie, Thomas Münzer, Rabelais, Fenelon, Diderot, and Swift; anarchist trends have also been detected in many religious groups aiming at a communalistic order, such as the Essenes, the early Christian apostles, the Anabaptists, and the Doukhobors. However, while it is true that some of the central libertarian ideas are to be found in varying degrees among these men and movements, the first forms of anarchism as a developed social philosophy appeared at the beginning of the modern era, when the medieval order had disintegrated, the Reformation had reached its radical, sectarian phase, and the rudimentary forms of modern political and economic organization had begun to appear. In other words, the emergence of the modern state and of capitalism is paralleled by the emergence of the philosophy that, in various forms, has opposed them most fundamentally.

Winstanley. Although Proudhon was the first writer to call himself an anarchist, at least two predecessors outlined systems that contain all the basic elements of anarchism. The first was Gerrard Winstanley (1609-c. 1660), a linen draper who led the small movement of the Diggers during the Commonwealth. Winstanley and his followers protested in the name of a radical Christianity against the economic distress that followed the Civil War and against the inequality that the grandees of the New Model Army seemed intent on preserving. In 1649–1650 the Diggers squatted on stretches of common land in southern England and attempted to set up communities based on work on the land and the sharing of goods. The communities failed, but a series of pamphlets by Winstanley survived, of which The New Law of Righteousness (1649) was the most important. Advocating a rational Christianity, Winstanley equated Christ with “the universal liberty” and declared the universally corrupting nature of authority. He saw “an equal privilege to share in the blessing of liberty” and detected an intimate link between the institution of property and the lack of freedom. In the society he sketched, work would be done in common and the products shared equally through a system of open storehouses, without commerce.

Like later libertarian philosophers, Winstanley saw crime as a product of economic inequality and maintained that the people should not put trust in rulers. Rather, they should act for themselves in order to end social injustice, so that the land should become a “common treasury” where free men could live in plenty. Winstanley died in obscurity and, outside the small and ephemeral group of Diggers, he appears to have wielded no influence, except possibly over the early Quakers.

Godwin. A more elaborate sketch of anarchism, although still without the name, was provided by William Godwin in his Enquiry Concerning Political Justice (1793). Godwin differed from most later anarchists in preferring to revolutionary action the gradual and, as it seemed to him, more natural process of discussion among men of good will, by which he hoped truth would eventually triumph through its own power. Godwin, who was influenced by the English tradition of Dissent and the French philosophy of the Enlightenment, put forward in a developed form the basic anarchist criticisms of the state, of accumulated property, and of the delegation of authority through democratic procedure. He believed in a “fixed and immutable morality,” manifesting itself through “universal benevolence”; man, he thought, had no right “to act anything but virtue and to utter anything but truth,” and his duty, therefore, was to act toward his fellow men in accordance with natural justice. Justice itself was based on immutable truths; human laws were fallible, and men should use their understandings to determine what is just and should act according to their own reasons rather than in obedience to the authority of “positive institutions,” which always form barriers to enlightened progress. Godwin rejected all established institutions and all social relations that suggested inequality or the power of one man over another, including marriage and even the role of an orchestra conductor. For the present he put his faith in small groups of men seeking truth and justice; for the future, in a society of free individuals organized locally in parishes and linked loosely in a society without frontiers and with the minimum of organization. Every man should take part in the production of necessities and should share his produce with all in need, on the basis of free distribution. Godwin distrusted an excess of political or economic cooperation; on the other hand, he looked forward to a freer intercourse of individuals through the progressive breaking down of social and economic barriers. Here, conceived in the primitive form of a society of free landworkers and artisans, was the first sketch of an anarchist world. The logical completeness of Political Justice, and its astonishing anticipation of later libertarian arguments, make it, as Sir Alexander Gray said, “the sum and substance of anarchism.”

Nineteenth-Century European Anarchism

However, despite their similarities to later libertarian philosophies, the systems of Winstanley and Godwin had no perceptible influence on nineteenth-century European anarchism, which was an independent development and which derived mainly from the peculiar fusion of early French socialist thought and German Neo-Hegelianism in the mind of Pierre Joseph Proudhon, the Besancon printer who has been called the father of anarchism. This tradition centered largely on a developing social revolutionary movement that attained mass dimensions in France, Italy, and Spain (where anarchism remained strong until the triumph of Franco in 1939), and to a lesser extent in French-speaking Switzerland, the Ukraine and Latin America. Apart from Proudhon, its main advocates were Michael Bakunin, Prince Peter Kropotkin, Errico Malatesta, Sebastien Faure, Gustav Landauer, Elisee Reclus, and Rudolf Rocker, with Max Stirner and Leo Tolstoy on the individualist and pacifist fringes respectively. Also, there arose among nineteenth-century anarchists a mystique that action and even theory should emerge from the people. Libertarian attitudes, particularly in connection with the anarchosyndicalism of France and Spain, were influenced by the rationalization and even romanticization of the experience of social struggle; the writings of Fernand Pelloutier and Georges Sorel in particular emanate from this aspect of the anarchist movement. Nineteenth-century anarchism assumed a number of forms, and the points of variation between them lie in three main areas: the use of violence, the degree of cooperation compatible with individual liberty, and the form of economic organization appropriate to a libertarian society.

Individualist anarchism. Individualist anarchism lies on the extreme and sometimes dubious fringe of the libertarian philosophies since, in seeking to assure the absolute independence of the person, it often seems to negate the social basis of true anarchism. This is particularly the case with Max Stirner, who specifically rejected society as well as the state and reduced organization to a union of egoists based on the mutual respect of “unique” individuals, each standing upon his “might.” French anarchism during the 1890s was particularly inclined toward individualism, which expressed itself partly in a distrust of organization and partly in the actions of terrorists like “Ravachol” and Emile Henry, who alone or in tiny groups carried out assassinations of people over whom they had appointed themselves both judges and executioners. A milder form of individualist anarchism was that advocated by the American libertarian writer Benjamin Tucker (1854–1939), who rejected violence in favor of refusal to obey and who, like all individualists, opposed any form of economic communism. What he asked was that property should be distributed and equalized so that every man should have control over the product of his labor.

Mutualism. Mutualism, developed by Proudhon, differed from individualist anarchism in its stress on the social element in human behavior. It rejected both political action and revolutionary violence — some of Proudhon’s disciples even objected to strikes as a form of coercion — in favor of the reform of society by the peaceful spread of workers’ associations, devoted particularly to mutual credit between producers. A recurrent mutualist plan, never fulfilled, was that of the people’s bank, which would arrange the exchange of goods on the basis of labor notes. The mutualists recognized that workers’ syndicates might be necessary for the functioning of industry and public utilities, but they rejected large-scale collectivization as a danger to liberty and based their economic approach as far as possible on individual possession of the means of production by peasants and small craftsmen united in a framework of exchange and credit arrangements. The mutualists laid great stress on federalist organization from the local commune upward as a substitute for the national state. Mutualism had a wide following among French artisans during the 1860s. Its exponents were fervently internationalist and played a great part in the formation of the International Workingmen’s Association in 1864; their influence diminished, however, with the rise of collectivism as an alternative libertarian philosophy.

Collectivism. Collectivism is the form of anarchism associated with Michael Bakunin. The collectivist philosophy was developed by Bakunin from 1864 onward, when he was forming the first international organizations of anarchists, the International Brotherhood and the International Alliance of Social Democracy. It was collectivist anarchism that formed the principal opposition to Marxism in the International Workingmen’s Association and thus began the historic rivalry between libertarian and authoritarian views of socialism. Bakunin and the other collectivists agreed with the mutualists in their rejection of the state and of political methods, in their stress on federalism, and in their view that the worker should be rewarded according to his labor. On the other hand, they differed in stressing the need for revolutionary means to bring about the downfall of the state and the establishment of a libertarian society. Most important, they advocated the public ownership and the exploitation through workers’ associations of the land and all services and means of production. While in mutualism the individual worker had been the basic unit, in collectivism it was the group of workers; Bakunin specifically rejected individualism of any kind and maintained that anarchism was a social doctrine and must be based on the acceptance of collective responsibilities.

Anarchist communism. Collectivism survived as the dominant anarchist philosophy in Spain until the 1930s; elsewhere it was replaced during the 1870s by the anarchist communism that was associated particularly with Peter Kropotkin, although it seems likely that Kropotkin was merely the most articulate exponent of a trend that grew out of discussions among anarchist intellectuals in Geneva during the years immediately after the Paris Commune of 1871. Through Kropotkin’s literary efforts anarchist communism was much more elaborately worked out than either mutualism or collectivism; in books like La Conquite du pain (The Conquest of Bread, 1892) and Fields, Factories and Workshops (1899) Kropotkin elaborated the scheme of a semiutopian decentralized society based on an integration of agriculture and industry, of town life and country life, of education and apprenticeship. Kropotkin also linked his theories closely with current evolutionary theories in the fields of anthropology and biology; anarchism, he suggested in Mutual Aid (1902), was the final stage in the development of cooperation as a factor in evolution. Anarchist communism differed from collectivism on only one fundamental point — the way in which the product of labor should be shared. In place of the collectivist and mutualist idea of remuneration according to hours of labor, the anarchist communists proclaimed the slogan “From each according to his means, to each according to his needs” and envisaged open warehouses from which any man could have what he wanted. They reasoned, first, that work was a natural need that men could be expected to fulfill without the threat of want and, second, that where no restriction was placed on available goods, there would be no temptation for any man to take more than he could use. The anarchist communists laid great stress on local communal organization and even on local economic self-sufficiency as a guarantee of independence.

Anarchosyndicalism. Anarchosyndicalism began to develop in the late 1880s, when many anarchists entered the French trade unions, or syndicates, which were just beginning to re-emerge after the period of suppression that followed the Paris Commune. Later, anarchist militants moved into key positions in the Confederation Generale du Travail, founded in 1895, and worked out the theories of anarchosyndicalism. They shifted the basis of anarchism to the syndicates, which they saw as organizations that united the producers in common struggle as well as in common work. The common struggle should take the form of “direct action,” primarily in industry, since there the workers could strike most sharply at their closest enemies, the capitalists; the highest form of direct action, the general strike, could end by paralyzing not merely capitalism but also the state.

When the state was paralyzed, the syndicates, which had been the organs of revolt, could be transformed into the basic units of the free society; the workers would take over the factories where they had been employees and would federate by industries. Anarchosyndicalism created a mystique of the working masses that ran counter to individualist trends; and the stress on the producers, as distinct from the consumers, disturbed the anarchist communists, who were haunted by the vision of massive trade unions ossifying into monolithic institutions. However, in France, Italy, and Spain it was the syndicalist variant that brought anarchism its first and only mass following. The men who elaborated the philosophy of anarchosyndicalism included militants, such as Fernand Pelloutier, Georges Yvetot, and Emile Pouget, who among them created the vision of a movement arising from the genius of the working people. There were also intellectuals outside the movement who drew theoretical conclusions from anarchosyndicalist practice; the most important was Georges Sorel, the author of Reflexions sur la violence (Reflections on Violence, 1908), who saw the general strike as a saving “social myth” that would maintain society in a state of struggle and, therefore, of health.

Pacifist anarchism. Pacifist anarchism has taken two forms. That of Leo Tolstoy attempted to give rational and concrete form to Christian ethics. Tolstoy rejected all violence; he advocated a moral revolution, its great tactic the refusal to obey. There was much, however, in Tolstoy’s criticisms of contemporary society and his suggestions for the future that paralleled other forms of anarchism. He denounced the state, law, and property; he foresaw cooperative production and distribution according to need.

Later a pacifist trend appeared in the anarchist movement in western Europe; its chief exponent was the Dutch ex-socialist, Domela Nieuwenhuis. It differed from strict Tolstoyism by accepting syndicalist forms of struggle that stopped short of violence, particularly the millenarian general strike for the abolition of war.

Despite their differences, all these forms of anarchism were united not merely in their rejection of the state, of politics, and of accumulated property, but also in certain more elusive attitudes. In its avoidance of partisan organization and political practices, anarchism retained more of the moral element than did other movements of protest. This aspect was shown with particular sharpness in the desire of its exponents for the simplification of life, not merely in the sense of removing the complications of authority, but also in eschewing the perils of wealth and establishing a frugal sufficiency as the basis for life. Progress, in the sense of bringing to all men a steadily rising supply of material goods, has never appealed to the anarchists; indeed, it is doubtful if their philosophy is at all progressive in the ordinary sense. They reject the present, but they reject it in the name of a future of austere liberty that will resurrect the lost virtues of a more natural past, a future in which struggle will not be ended, but merely transformed within the dynamic equilibrium of a society that rejects utopia and knows neither absolutes nor perfections.

The main difference between the anarchists and the socialists, including the Marxists, lies in the fact that while the socialists maintain that the state must be taken over as the first step toward its dissolution, the anarchists argue that, since power corrupts, any seizure of the existing structure of authority can only lead to its perpetuation. However, anarchosyndicalists regard their unions as the skeleton of a new society growing up within the old.

The problem of reconciling social harmony with complete individual freedom is a recurrent one in anarchist thought. It has been argued that an authoritarian society produces antisocial reactions, which would vanish in freedom. It has also been suggested, by Godwin and Kropofkin particularly, that public opinion will suffice to deter those who abuse their liberty. However, George Orwell has pointed out that the reliance on public opinion as a force replacing overt coercion might lead to a moral tyranny which, having no codified bounds, could in the end prove more oppressive than any system of laws.

Bibliography

George Woodcock, Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements (Cleveland, 1962) is a complete history. The most recent study is James Joll, The Anarchists (London, 1964).

Earlier and less complete works include Paul Elzbacher, Anarchism (New York, 1908); E. V. Zenker, Anarchism (London, 1898); and Rudolf Rocker, Anarcho-Syndicalism (London, 1938).

Much valuable material is contained in Max Nettlau’s three volumes, Der Anarchismus von Proudhon zu Kropotkin (Berlin, 1927); Anarchisten und Social-Revolutionare (Berlin, 1931); and Der Vorfrühling der Anarchie (Berlin, 1925).

Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition (London, 1946) contains provocative critical studies of Godwin, Proudhon, and Bakunin; Bertrand Russell, Proposed Roads to Freedom (New York, 1919) has a chapter (2) entitled “Bakunin and Anarchism.”


Twelve Reasons We Need to Strike Syria Now: [View all] Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 OP
Anarchists....pffffffftttttt! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #1
Yeah, pffffffffffft. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #2
Sure Anarchists do..... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #16
We've been through this before. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #18
So they were all professed Anarchists? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #27
Sure, why not: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #43
thats you saying so... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #45
It took you all of 15 seconds to read that? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #49
because I already know the answer... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #52
The only ones who didn't were Thoreau (and that's the modern political sense). Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #54
See thats the thing...in this contex...you don't get to just "crown people" Anarchists... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #62
No one is crowning anyone anarchists. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #93
you are deeming them Anarchists...when most have never made any such claim. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #95
Another ten second post. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #98
Did Whitman call himself an Anarchist...or is he just another that you claim is? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #168
Also, can you explain the whole Jesus and Marx thing? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #99
Dude, VR's been on a tear , I want to say recently, but I don't know. Phlem Sep 2013 #148
Yep, about to be done with the internets for the night. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #152
Because I call out Anarchists in our Midst? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #292
You didn't have to call me out. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #300
I called out WHAT you are... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #303
Yes, I am anarchist: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #310
No you are an Anarchist that believes: VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #311
Better Get to work over at Wikipedia... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #312
LOL ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #316
What YOU are doing is cherry-picking... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #318
You used Wikipedia ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #326
I have never talked about the history of anarchy...talking about what it means... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #389
Sure Phlem Sep 2013 #307
they hate ALL govt...get it? We are Democrats...one in fact kept mentioning Plato.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #350
Oh my. Phlem Sep 2013 #358
Why would I need to? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #169
I can't be to blame for your faulty reading comprehension. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #174
NO an Anarchist at a Democratic forum....is the very epitome of Troll! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #180
You're not here about your beliefs? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #183
Not here to lie about the very nature of them... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #185
Goody goody gumdrops. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #187
A mature anarchist aren't ya? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #189
Going to bed. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #190
You should go to bed.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #192
Sleep tight. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #195
Oh you bet I will.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #196
there are many anarchists and anarcho syndicalists who vote democratdo matt in france Sep 2013 #233
Thank you, Matt. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #239
they may vote Democratic....but they are at the core...anti-govt. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #257
only if humanity evolves to the point that matt in france Sep 2013 #374
No....that is not Anarchists. Anarchist despise ALL forms of government VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #377
its really very simple matt in france Sep 2013 #378
that will never happen... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #380
Violins play in the background... Katashi_itto Sep 2013 #248
I like your posts here, FA. Being a person who flew at windmills all roguevalley Sep 2013 #226
Thank you, Rogue! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #240
It does, darling. :D roguevalley Sep 2013 #372
I knew it.....all along... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #259
you have to ignore heaven05 Sep 2013 #251
Yes you have to ignore Anarchists....who are ignorant of the facts... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #260
You seem to me to be here to disrupt. Is that the case? nm rhett o rick Sep 2013 #199
I am here to tell the Anarchists what they stand for apparently VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #268
Hey, by the way ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #285
but you are not a Fantastic Socialist...you are the Fantastic Anarchist. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #390
Republicans would be accepted...BUT they wouldn't be able to change the "atmosphere". VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #391
See my point is Anarchists hate government and want them all disbanded... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #392
VanillaRhapsody probably doesn't realize what you mean ZombieHorde Sep 2013 #137
I have shown time and time again...I know EXACTLY what it means...and I have the actual VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #167
You cherry-picked them both. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #171
NO that is not cherry-picking... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #175
You cherry-picked them both. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #179
I gave you the FULL definitions there....that is not cherry picking. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #182
lolol - I'm waiting for the VR synopsis of Plato's Republic. TBF Sep 2013 #244
I've been waiting ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #246
I'm not an Anarchist....I have nothing to prove...but as long as we are on the subject.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #293
It's kinda, sorta a free country. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #298
Yes it can.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #302
Who are you replying to? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #308
No I am not interested in Plato right now....Do you deny the core principle of Anarchy VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #309
I've answered your questions many times in this very thread. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #313
I am not your Anarchist slave... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #314
Some anarchists use violence, others don't. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #320
the still share the same core principle..hatred of all types of govt....violent or not... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #388
More on Berkman... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #315
You do know that Henry Clay Frick had murdered hundreds of workers. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #322
I wasnt supporting Frick was I? I was opposing your bullshit about Anarchy! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #324
By denigrating Alexander Berkman ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #328
I didn't have to "denigrate" him....I just printed the truth.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #330
Did you get that from a dictionary? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #335
What do you have against Websters and Oxford? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #336
I have nothing against them. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #337
Plato was Anti-Democracy VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #340
Okay now you are a Socialist...I don't blame you for trying that tactic... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #317
Please read. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #325
Oh NO they are most certainy NOT VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #327
Wow, you better tell that to all the libertarian socialists and anarchists then. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #331
i am just as opoposed to Libertarians believe me... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #334
Anarchism vs Socialism VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #329
You don't even read the material and then profess to tell me who I am? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #333
I don't read propaganda... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #338
Looks like you don't read, period. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #339
Trust me I read plenty...just not what I am "commanded" to read. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #341
Good bye, VanillaRhapsody. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #342
Yeah was fun throwing Ice Water attempt to sugar coat Anarchy VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #343
I never asked, and since this is my thread and all ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #347
Willfully ignorant, FA. No hope. Th1onein Sep 2013 #386
More like willfully refuse to fall for the inanity that anarchy is something beside the absence of VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #393
Do favor strikes in Syria? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #399
You are willfully ignorant. carla Sep 2013 #61
It's just knee-jerk reactionary stream of consciousness. delrem Sep 2013 #69
Oh thats what you think huh? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #94
No, you're nasty for other reasons. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #103
because I don't like Anarchists taking over Democratic Underground... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #108
No one is taking over Democratic Underground. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #114
But this is NOT your Anarchist site... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #117
Of course we believe in government. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #121
Not if you are an anarchist you dont believe in govt... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #129
Are you telling me what I believe now? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #132
Your name is not "abstract Anarchist" VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #145
You're 52, right? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #150
if its only a "theory" then VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #151
You're just trolling now. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #153
Nope...but the Anarchists have been trolling this site for a couple weeks now! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #155
O_o Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #159
Never...this gal is a life long Democrat... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #294
I'm truly happy for you. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #296
Too bad you are foolish enough to fall for Lyndon LaRouche's VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #297
I'm not a fan of Lyndon LaRouche. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #299
Well then why are you here handing out your virtual flyers... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #304
Let me be clear: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #319
You mean Platos Retreat...that nasty Wife Swapping Club from the 1970's VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #321
hahahahaahah You just proved my point again: VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #323
Oh for fucks sake VR who the hell died and gave you Skinner's keys? Dragonfli Sep 2013 #229
Wow, thank you. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #243
+1 laundry_queen Sep 2013 #262
+10000 heaven05 Sep 2013 #263
Well said. Jamastiene Sep 2013 #265
I am calling out Anarchists...and no I wont shut up... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #305
LOL, my aren't you the self important little bully, OK then, ignore my advice, call out members Dragonfli Sep 2013 #352
I haven't broken rules.....this place is for Democrats...not anti-govt types VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #354
You are not a bully but you are gunning for people that identify as Anarchists? You said you want to Dragonfli Sep 2013 #355
You damn skippy...they are Anarchists...they are anti-govt...ANY govt....this is Democratic VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #357
LOL Dragonfli Sep 2013 #359
Interesting how so many of you are looking into my past postings... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #306
I wouldn't say nerves.... a few funny bones maybe... you are rather amusing at times. /nt Dragonfli Sep 2013 #353
I believe in not backpeddling...definition of Anarchy: VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #154
You've already tried that ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #156
dont have to "try" its a FACT! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #160
Yes, the definition that you cherry-picked. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #162
Didn't have to cherry pick...its freaking WEBSTERS! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #164
You never linked to it. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #166
And in case you don't like Websters definition... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #165
No link again in your Oxford. Here's mine: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #170
YOU just proved MY point. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #173
Yes. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #176
YOU proved MY point that Anarchist want to abolish all government... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #177
I never tried to hide it. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #181
You previously denied wanting to abolish all government VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #184
I never denied any such thing. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #186
Yes you did...yesterday.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #191
Please show me where I denied any such thing. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #193
So you admit you are just here trolling the Democratic Underground.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #197
****VanillaRhapsody got PWNED in this thread***** bvar22 Sep 2013 #274
hahahahahaahahahahahahahaha! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #387
What a sad post. DireStrike Sep 2013 #202
I don't think age has anything to do with intelligene, necessarily. Jamastiene Sep 2013 #264
"Anarchy" and "anarchism" are not perfectly synonymous. That, perhaps, is the crux of the problem nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #206
Yeah actually they are synonymous... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #207
That's the thing though. You keep repeating the dictionary definition of "anarchy" without any nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #211
BECAUSE "its THE dictionary definition"! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #212
As you've been told by others, a one-sentence dictionary definition doesn't tell the whole story. nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #216
No the core principle IS they hate all forms of govt. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #219
You support one-party rule??? nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #221
No...but this website is quite obviously a Democratic one... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #222
Simplified or not...that's the core principle behind it...no denying that. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #223
I give you the dictionary definition of Republican: Downtown Hound Sep 2013 #280
I will see that and raise this... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #360
Oh bullshit, they're not trying to redefine anything Downtown Hound Sep 2013 #375
Yes they ARE trying to redefine the world... Anarchy is the absence of state correct.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #395
How about Anarchist....lets see what the dictionary says about that.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #209
It's really hopeless to argue with someone who won't educate themselves, carla. Th1onein Sep 2013 #133
Facts are funny things... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #204
Go forth, VanillaRhapsody! Educate thyself! Th1onein Sep 2013 #230
I happen to have a great education....and I know what an Anarchist stands for VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #261
Sorry, you do not. Th1onein Sep 2013 #361
Sorry yes I DO and Oxford and Websters Dictionaries back me up! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #362
You have a very simplistic view of anarchy, but of course, you would. Th1onein Sep 2013 #371
Of course....the core principle IS as stated... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #373
At it's core, anarchy is NOT the hatred of government! That's laughable. Th1onein Sep 2013 #381
No I don't... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #382
well put... icarusxat Sep 2013 #200
I was wondering that too carla. AllyCat Sep 2013 #225
oh come on! You got your answer - going "nyah nyah" at it is childish. delrem Sep 2013 #68
Quite possibly the worst ever rebuttal I have seen on DU. MelungeonWoman Sep 2013 #84
Not editting Jack! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #96
Hilarious. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #107
Hilarious for "not editting" too carolinayellowdog Sep 2013 #126
Self Delete Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #128
I am replying to nearly 10 people at the moment...sorry to insult you with a little typo in my zest. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #130
amused by the particular word you misspelled, not insulted at all carolinayellowdog Sep 2013 #172
So now the major malfunction is I don't write long posts to you? So you are insulted VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #210
I see what you did there. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #131
! Jamastiene Sep 2013 #266
If they really wanted to, I highly doubt you'd have the power individually to stop it... nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #208
so you admit this is a coordinated effort? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #394
No, I really don't think so. I think your fear of anarchist infiltration is a bit overstated. nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #397
Not afraid of it... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #398
Believe what you will. I just don't think things are quite that black and white. nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #407
OMFG! pecwae Sep 2013 #234
You haven't read this one: Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #124
Never studied communications signal theory, have you? mbperrin Sep 2013 #91
Actually MUCH Older...not that its any of your business. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #97
I'm an educator - ignorance is my stock in trade. mbperrin Sep 2013 #101
who is lying...I was born in 61....got a problem with that? Decidely much older huh? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #106
Well, you can be somewhat entertaining, but now you're just boringly mbperrin Sep 2013 #213
then go away Anarchist! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #270
I'm no anarchist - I'm a populist, but what the hey. mbperrin Sep 2013 #348
then why did you pop in to defend a debate with Anarchists about what Anarchy is? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #349
Okay, so YOU don't have to be an anarchist to discuss them, mbperrin Sep 2013 #351
Better get a dictionary! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #363
I'm 65 heaven05 Sep 2013 #269
So in order to be an anarchist or espouse their beliefs, they have to say AllyCat Sep 2013 #224
Troll RetroLounge Sep 2013 #384
I trust Kerry and John Boehner more than any of those losers. Nt Dr Fate Sep 2013 #112
Howard Zinn and Gandhi are losers? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #116
You may as well add Hitler and Stalin. Dr Fate Sep 2013 #119
O_o Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #122
FA, that reminds me of another one: beerandjesus Sep 2013 #271
And just what have the centrists got done? Downtown Hound Sep 2013 #283
Well stated, Downtown Hound. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #286
Really, you trust Boehner more than Emma Goldman, Gandhi, or Howard Zinn? Downtown Hound Sep 2013 #282
Ghandi called himself an Anarchist? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #396
Source is in the material you didn't read. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #400
did Ghandi say it? Do you have a quote? No? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #402
I've asked you three times now. Do you support strikes on Syria? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #403
Do I support strikes to take out chemical weapons? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #404
Why are you so defensive and angry? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #405
Neither...just wise VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #406
So, you're willing to strike Syria ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #408
add a name matt in france Sep 2013 #232
OOOHHHH! SNAP! heaven05 Sep 2013 #250
Since you are obviously not an anarchist, carla Sep 2013 #59
I don't have a clue? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #100
Dictionary definitions of a political philosophy as complex as anarchy will not suffice. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #113
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #115
I said dictionary definitions about a complex philosophy don't suffice. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #120
Let it go man DireStrike Sep 2013 #203
and its still Democratic Underground....the Full On Anarchist takeover of it hasn't yet happened. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #29
But, your delusions have. Fuddnik Sep 2013 #33
No but saying "Obama == George Bush" is AOK with you though right? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #48
Oh noes! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #50
When Obama acts like GWB it is ok to call him on it. MyNameGoesHere Sep 2013 #53
but I can PROVE he doesn't act like him! VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #105
So he gets a pass when he wants to get his war on? MyNameGoesHere Sep 2013 #118
He doesn't have to have your blessing does he? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #134
You think that's proof that he doesn't act like Bush? cui bono Sep 2013 #140
You think Bush would do any of that? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #141
In this one thing, this one little thing, this tiny thing MyNameGoesHere Sep 2013 #149
Oh, I see. So when you are proven wrong you change the wording. Doesn't work. cui bono Sep 2013 #198
Well, when you can't tell.... paleotn Sep 2013 #74
when YOU can't .... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #109
Well -----start the commotion warrant46 Sep 2013 #78
not a socialist... hmmmm nt demosocialist Sep 2013 #281
Oy vey. We went through this the last time, too. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #46
You are insulted by being called an Anarchist and being told this isnt Anarchist Underground VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #111
When did I complain to anyone? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #127
You threatened to "show me the terms of service" VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #142
The last time you and I had this exchange ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #143
but its still not Anarchist Underground...its Democratic Underground.. VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #253
What's interesting to me is how you keep repeating that this is "Democratic Underground".... beerandjesus Sep 2013 #275
Who the hell is saying it has to conform to anarchist sensibilities? Downtown Hound Sep 2013 #279
you're joking heaven05 Sep 2013 #252
My lack of education? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #255
Ooohhhhh! heaven05 Sep 2013 #258
"solidarity with those who are oppressed" Daniel537 Sep 2013 #17
Yeah, blowing civilians ("collateral damage") to pieces is really liberating for them, right? nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #215
Woot brother! Taverner Sep 2013 #178
Thank you. :) Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #188
I'd watch that tone. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #102
Excellent precise and relevant point. JEB Sep 2013 #201
I apologize. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #241
Where are you getting this stuff? Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #3
I'm deliberately making it nonsense ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #4
Only in your mind.................. Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #12
In other's, too, friend. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #25
That was then, Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #31
You got most of those boiler plate spasms down ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #56
Yeah it was spasmy and word salady HangOnKids Sep 2013 #66
I don't know...I was kind of moved. DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2013 #205
I was moved to go eat a salad HangOnKids Sep 2013 #220
And you can get nasty like Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #70
Bravo! IrishAyes Sep 2013 #157
Boo hoo. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #161
Have you ever been in a fourth grade spitting contest? HangOnKids Sep 2013 #217
Unlike the expert on the subject, I din't start chewin' me tobaccee 'till my 5th Dragonfli Sep 2013 #231
+1! nt sheshe2 Sep 2013 #254
PNAC is not just for Republicans any more nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #277
How ridiculous to equate Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #344
I am sorry, did I hurt your feelings? nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #345
Yes, you did actually. Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #346
I'm with you, my friend lark Sep 2013 #44
Thank you! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #51
and I loved it..thanks florida08 Sep 2013 #67
You forgot: "Hitler!" - nt HardTimes99 Sep 2013 #5
Oh, yes, and the correlated "appeasement!" nt Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #7
And Poland! Fuddnik Sep 2013 #34
Wait...Assad's gassing Poland, now? Ken Burch Sep 2013 #37
We'll look like big pussies if we don't! superpatriotman Sep 2013 #6
The whole world is waiting for us to act! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #8
Yes superpatriotman Sep 2013 #10
Waiting for us to act like what? another_liberal Sep 2013 #88
That is not true of Obama or Kerry saying that. Isoldeblue Sep 2013 #13
Add... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2013 #9
Don't forget, you can't spell Assad without Ass LearningCurve Sep 2013 #11
Added it in the edit. nt Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #19
You the man! nt LearningCurve Sep 2013 #20
I'll make ya famous! nt Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #23
Exquisitely and bitingly excoriating indepat Sep 2013 #14
Thank you. I have my moments. :) Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #22
Wasn't there something about babies and incubators? KansDem Sep 2013 #15
Included in the edit. nt Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #21
K&R! n/t backscatter712 Sep 2013 #24
I heard the Miley Cyrus thing on the VMA's was Assad's idea. hughee99 Sep 2013 #26
As long as they have enough yellow cake to go around Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #28
"Obama, Kerry, and Hagel said to" MisterP Sep 2013 #30
You've said it well. mbperrin Sep 2013 #32
It was Assad at the Alamo, too! Ken Burch Sep 2013 #39
You forgot this one: "We're fighting them over there, so we don't have to fight them here" W T F Sep 2013 #35
This is the result of eight years of Kerry's efforts to bring peace to Syria. OnyxCollie Sep 2013 #36
It's not his fault they nodded off during his lecture. Fuddnik Sep 2013 #42
DON"T GAS ME, BRO! n/t MelungeonWoman Sep 2013 #87
I literally LOL'd. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #125
Hey! The troops need condiments and garnishes! dflprincess Sep 2013 #163
K & R !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #38
Hey, that strategy worked last time 2naSalit Sep 2013 #40
And since everyone loves the picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, 7962 Sep 2013 #41
Oh Noes!!!!!! Fuddnik Sep 2013 #47
"These bombs aren't going to drop theselves!" Thav Sep 2013 #55
Love it. It's going in on the edit. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #57
War is peace. Brewinblue Sep 2013 #58
Rand Paul is against it nxylas Sep 2013 #60
You can add what Bill Richardson just told Blitzer on CNN, too. Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #63
Domino Effect redux. Fuddnik Sep 2013 #71
I recommend this post texshelters Sep 2013 #64
You Forgot Wolf Frankula Sep 2013 #65
Heat, not light. n/t Bolo Boffin Sep 2013 #72
I'm Barack Obama, and I approve this message. bigwillq Sep 2013 #73
It'll lead to a war with Iran, finally! another_liberal Sep 2013 #75
I heard that Assad tried to kill Obama's daddy. Ilsa Sep 2013 #76
Good one! another_liberal Sep 2013 #86
If you liked Fallujah, you'll love Latakia! another_liberal Sep 2013 #77
Oh yes Fallujah where they used to hold the Rose Petal Parade warrant46 Sep 2013 #79
We shut down the hospitals . . . another_liberal Sep 2013 #81
It was Bush's penultimate academy award war crime against the helpless warrant46 Sep 2013 #83
I hope they find relief. another_liberal Sep 2013 #85
Yes, they are warrant46 Sep 2013 #90
That's why we always try to dehumanize our enemies. another_liberal Sep 2013 #92
more reasons locks Sep 2013 #80
Obama: Bringing Republicans and Democrats together ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #82
You can't spell Assad without ass is my favorite. smokey nj Sep 2013 #89
K&R MotherPetrie Sep 2013 #104
k&r Starry Messenger Sep 2013 #110
"You can't spell Assad without Ass!!!!" Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #123
K&R you missed Do you stand with the leader of the Democratic Party? Or do you stand with Rand Paul? idwiyo Sep 2013 #135
I saw that. My response? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #136
I saw your responce :) I just thought that OP was classic "Let's bomb'em 'cause FUCK RON PAUL!11!!!" idwiyo Sep 2013 #138
Go Fuck Yourself, San Diego! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #139
Damn, that's a good one! idwiyo Sep 2013 #146
But, but, but, but, what about .... Snake Plissken Sep 2013 #144
If you break it, you bought it. grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #147
Excellent! Carolina Sep 2013 #158
A duer posted one I thought was funny, (If we don't bomb) "We will look like pussies!" quinnox Sep 2013 #194
Yeah, because we all know the worst goddamn thing in the world nomorenomore08 Sep 2013 #218
You are either with us or you are with the baby killers. n/t PowerToThePeople Sep 2013 #214
Twelve Reasons Why OPs Like This Make DU Suck Summer Hathaway Sep 2013 #227
Well, that's your condescending opinion. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #242
Well, if it sucks so much nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #278
Yawn RetroLounge Sep 2013 #385
keep it up donheld Sep 2013 #228
This thread made me cum Eddie Rek Sep 2013 #235
I'm against this war, but this OP adds nothing to the discussion. Only one of the reasons stevenleser Sep 2013 #236
And #13... nikto Sep 2013 #237
You convinced me. rucky Sep 2013 #238
K&R TBF Sep 2013 #245
It's classic "hoarding" behavior, actually. kenny blankenship Sep 2013 #247
Safety OccupyManny Sep 2013 #249
#1: "We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia." nt Romulox Sep 2013 #256
Epic battle upthread, FA. bunnies Sep 2013 #267
Come now and join the revolution! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #364
Shhh! bunnies Sep 2013 #365
Fuck! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #366
Oh wait... bunnies Sep 2013 #368
I meant Evolution ... not revolution! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #369
As long as the bear didnt shit on the turkey... bunnies Sep 2013 #370
LOL! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #376
The 9% whom are FOR any bombing, invasion or intervention should be drafted.... Bohemianwriter Sep 2013 #272
#13 Saudi Arabia has offered to pay for it Ocelot Sep 2013 #273
I don't think I can add much to this nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #276
The 1% has WAY TOO MUCH MONEY on its hands ... must think about ways to spend it !!! blkmusclmachine Sep 2013 #284
My friend the 1% won't pay a dime. Puglover Sep 2013 #287
Plus, the war will pay for itself don'cha'know! n/t GOTV Sep 2013 #288
K & R (n/t) bread_and_roses Sep 2013 #289
EXACTLY. I still remember Cheney and the "mushroom cloud." Such appalling fear-mongering. anneboleyn Sep 2013 #290
And by the way, punishing people who have nothing to do with ... Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #291
hahahahahahahahaha! ellie Sep 2013 #295
You're welcome! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #301
IT'S A COUP, I TELL YA! Jamastiene Sep 2013 #332
Silence! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #367
K&R Major Kong Rides Again! warrprayer Sep 2013 #356
I would be in favor of shooting missiles at Syria if...... lastlib Sep 2013 #379
More on pipelines Rosa Luxemburg Sep 2013 #383
Hello! :) Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #401
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