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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
113. Get off the net. Leave the front lawns of the parks and city halls.
Tue Sep 10, 2013, 04:01 AM
Sep 2013

And your house is too small to meet with more than a few friends.

That is how democracy is being squashed and outlawed in our country.

The homes of most of us in the 99% are too small and humble to permit us to entertain more than family and friends at one time.

We are not allowed to congregate in public places for long enough to organize a movement.

And the government watches us when we communicate on the internet ever ready to infiltrate any kind of movement, no matter how peaceful, no matter how democratic, no matter how utterly harmless it is.

This is the trend in many countries in the world, I am sure. Just read an article on censorship in China tonight. And the gist of the article was that speech itself is not repressed as long as it does not present the possibility that people might congregate or meet or demonstrate.

Sorry. But we need a free internet, free from surveillance.

And we need privacy laws that protect our words and the thoughts that we express with them from any surveillance performed without our personal consent, whether by private or public entities.

Our very future as a nation and a world depend on freedom of thought and expression, on creativity. And surveillance destroys creativity.

I would suggest that anyone who doubts my words read the book, Wild Swans, Three Daughters of China. In it the author describes the devastating effect that the accusations and paranoia of the Communists under Mao, particularly during the period in which Madame Mao held great influence, had on creativity, problem solving and the functioning of society in China post WWII.

China did not have the means to watch its people that are available in this age of the internet. But it managed through requiring and rewarding spying and reporting on neighbors to create quite a terror regime. The more spying and accusing, the poorer China became.

Excessive spying leads to suspicion, blame and paranoia. In turn, those feelings paralyze citizens and prevent the emotions and values that are necessary for a functioning society such as trust, confidence and hope. We need to be realistic, not paranoid or fearful. But that is difficult when over and over our worst fears, our fantasies of Big Brother are admitted to be true.

We need trust to overcome difficulty. That cannot exist in an atmosphere of surveillance. Everyone begins after a time to watch their speech. The society itself becomes dishonest. This happens in every dictatorship. Read the history. The lessons are clear.

Surveillance forces discontent to be hidden. And the discontent then manifests itself in very destructive behavior. That is not a wish on my part. That is an observation. Just read the history and watch the people and society around you.

For example, when homosexuality and abortion (even for medical reasons) were prohibited, people did not admit to that kind of behavior. We saw what that lead to: deaths from AIDs among homosexuals and deaths from illegal abortions among women.

There are many, many examples of behavior or speech that are prohibited for no good reason that result in people continuing the behavior but in secret, and often to harm of themselves and others around them.

Surveillance discourages openness and honesty. That is why tyrants love it so much.

Sorry, but do a cost-benefit analysis. The small benefit that a government or business gains from surveillance is far outweighed by the costs, the detriment to individuals and society.

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Greenwald's bombshell news continue [View all] David Krout Sep 2013 OP
Gee, how shocking... not. MADem Sep 2013 #1
Yet, nothing enrages a neodem like US state secrets spied and exposed whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #3
I don't really think it's a secret that the US spies on foreign countries and their leaders Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #4
Were you aware that the NSA was spying on these individuals? David Krout Sep 2013 #6
It has always been my assumption that the NSA and CIA spy on most other countries Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #7
Well, you're not the president of Mexico or Brazil. It looks like they are not too pleased sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #10
Of course they have to act outraged for their public. These are elected officials. Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #15
So All Outrage Is Artificial Outrage - Well I Guess That Obama Does Not Need To Start A War Then cantbeserious Sep 2013 #105
I wonder if Greenwald will report what countries are spying gholtron Sep 2013 #17
Spying on Obama's emails? David Krout Sep 2013 #22
If someone leaks information to him I am sure he will. Just as Wikileaks sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #30
I would like to see a Greenwald expose on arely staircase Sep 2013 #94
You are wasting your keystrokes. They will blindly follow Clapper, Mueller, Alexander, rhett o rick Sep 2013 #84
I know. Who would ever have thought that the 'left' would be so enamoured of sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #85
Shocking, except these are the same posters who take every "right" position RetroLounge Sep 2013 #88
Yes, we now know what has to be done to save the Democratic Party from sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #91
It's a big bus, but gonna get awful lonely when the only ones NOT under it RetroLounge Sep 2013 #93
I dont call any of "them" the left. They are the new conservative Democrats. rhett o rick Sep 2013 #99
I love ridiculous indignant outrage. When they probably do the same. n./t vaberella Sep 2013 #89
'Probably' isn't much of a defense. Do you have anything, as Greenwald has, to show sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #92
Sadly no. vaberella Sep 2013 #112
This thread has a strong whiff of Fail about it. Number23 Sep 2013 #97
That is the NSA's stated mission. It keeps an eye on MineralMan Sep 2013 #19
Well, Brazil is recalling its ambassador, and it's on the front pages of Mexican newspapers. Comrade Grumpy Sep 2013 #8
Of course the media in those countries find it of interest Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #11
They are pretending not to like their emails read! David Krout Sep 2013 #18
I should hope so, considering Kerry discussed this w/Brazil over two weeks ago. MADem Sep 2013 #47
Ya think? Cha Sep 2013 #55
What it is!!! +1000! nt MADem Sep 2013 #58
Bombshell!!!!1111 Cha Sep 2013 #60
Sums it up perfectly! randome Sep 2013 #77
+1. "Repackaging" is right. Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #82
Nailed it... SidDithers Sep 2013 #83
As always, Cesca nails it. Number23 Sep 2013 #98
Bingo! sheshe2 Sep 2013 #104
If only they had consulted with Cali_Democrat David Krout Sep 2013 #14
Yes. I did know that the CIA and NSA spy on foreign countries Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #16
Why don't you like to use the word "Presidents"? David Krout Sep 2013 #21
Greenwald is trying to sell books. gholtron Sep 2013 #20
No, the interest is far from fading unless you want it to be that way. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #33
Google and Microsoft Why Syzygy Sep 2013 #44
The Civil Liberties Union also and I imagine there will be class action suits from sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #75
I see... Spying = A-OK whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #23
If they'd gotten 'em with a simple hack, we'd have to play "fair game." MADem Sep 2013 #52
Ha, such bullshit whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #71
What secret? It's in Wikipedia for god's sake. DevonRex Sep 2013 #66
One wonders why Assange never released the files he had on Russia. KittyWampus Sep 2013 #5
Lol, one wouldn't wonder if one were in possession of the facts: sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #13
Those are classified American diplomatic cables, not Russian Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #106
Yes, and Wikileaks didn't try to hide them in order to protect Russia, as you implied. sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #108
My post attacked wikileaks? Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #109
KittyWampus - simple answer Iliyah Sep 2013 #24
Well, considering he DID release leaks on Russia and he's still alive that would sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #36
Tell that to the leaders of Mexico and Brazil. JDPriestly Sep 2013 #26
Our world has been a mess since the beginning Iliyah Sep 2013 #37
Not for lack of desire--you can be sure of that. MADem Sep 2013 #40
Get off the net. Leave the front lawns of the parks and city halls. JDPriestly Sep 2013 #113
Gentlemen don't read each other's mail. Why Syzygy Sep 2013 #46
They don't read Wikipedia? UKUSA. It's been in Wikipedia for years. DevonRex Sep 2013 #64
What are allies for? They should be proud that we're snooping on them. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2013 #2
That is what NSA is supposed to do -- collect signals intelligence on foreigners FarCenter Sep 2013 #9
The problem is, they the NSA, treats American citizens the same as foreign nationals. RC Sep 2013 #12
Communications of American citizens are analysed by NSA mostly when in contact with foreigners FarCenter Sep 2013 #80
And who is most likely to communicate with foreign nationals? JDPriestly Sep 2013 #114
This is where the outrage lies. Not with the OP's post. vaberella Sep 2013 #90
or old girlfriends, competitors, old friends, childhood rivals Supersedeas Sep 2013 #107
I imagine all countries spy on other countries, but this is about spying on the sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #38
I'm sure Brazil would spy on Obama's personal correspondence if they could. FarCenter Sep 2013 #79
Greenwald's Next Bombshells: Water Is Wet; Bears Shit In The Woods. baldguy Sep 2013 #25
Good point. MannyGoldstein Sep 2013 #28
Lol! sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #39
I thought because of the Allende murder gopiscrap Sep 2013 #27
Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #29
who? MisterP Sep 2013 #45
Note to St Glenn: Journalists are frequently shot in Mexico, but on the bright side, UTUSN Sep 2013 #31
Huh? The Mexican President shot a journalist? David Krout Sep 2013 #34
Wow, that sounded drunken. Was there a point you were trying to make? Comrade Grumpy Sep 2013 #59
amazing how supposed supporters of rights and freedoms personally attack and UTUSN Sep 2013 #62
I think the member simply wanted to know what the killing of journalists have to do... David Krout Sep 2013 #68
yeah, flinging the word "drunken" in the proximity of another member UTUSN Sep 2013 #72
I did not understand your post or the point you wanted to make, either. Quantess Sep 2013 #76
Yeah, that'll help your case. Thanks for that. n/t UTUSN Sep 2013 #103
You forgot your sarcasm smilie. pnwmom Sep 2013 #32
NSA defenders will pretend this was sarcasm David Krout Sep 2013 #41
I don't care that the NSA or CIA are spying on foreign countries. pnwmom Sep 2013 #42
Another one who feels uncomfortable using the word "Presidents" David Krout Sep 2013 #48
The operative word is "foreign" not "President." nt pnwmom Sep 2013 #50
Were these individuals suspected of a crime or threatening the security of the US? David Krout Sep 2013 #61
Are these individuals under our laws and protection now? randome Sep 2013 #78
You reacted to my question with another question David Krout Sep 2013 #86
The question is irrelevant since our laws do not apply to other countries. randome Sep 2013 #100
Perhaps not. (Unless you truly believe that all men are created equal and endowed by their JDPriestly Sep 2013 #115
Are you aware of Why Syzygy Sep 2013 #51
No, I don't think we should be killing them or they should be killing us. pnwmom Sep 2013 #56
If Why Syzygy Sep 2013 #63
Spying is also done defensively, and countries that are our allies pnwmom Sep 2013 #65
Is the reason why these Presidents were spied on related to an alliance with bad guys? David Krout Sep 2013 #67
I guess we'll have to wait for Snowden to tell us. n/t pnwmom Sep 2013 #74
And, after all, they're just following orders. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2013 #53
Nothing helpful to Americans creeksneakers2 Sep 2013 #35
Bingo! nt MzShellG Sep 2013 #49
K & R !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #43
If nations spying on each other deserves "meh", shrug from some people daleo Sep 2013 #54
Exactly. SOP when we do it to others, manhunts and tribunals when it's done to us. n/t whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #69
WHAT?? I CAN'T hear you!!! 99th_Monkey Sep 2013 #57
How to win friends and influence people. Savannahmann Sep 2013 #70
+1 n/t Catherina Sep 2013 #73
Power run amuk! Little Star Sep 2013 #111
that kinda sounds like routine stuff Skittles Sep 2013 #81
Doesn't our government spy on all leaders and vice versa? vaberella Sep 2013 #87
Should have.... wildbilln864 Sep 2013 #95
BENGHAZI!! BENGHAZI!! ... No? Now what? Oh, OK ... SYRIA!!! SYRIA!!! Scuba Sep 2013 #96
Not really a surprise as long as there have been governments there's been espionage Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #101
"I bet" isn't news David Krout Sep 2013 #110
Are people that naive? Soundman Sep 2013 #102
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