General Discussion

whathehell

(30,486 posts)

257. Thank you, I agree, but supporting him with 'low expectations"?

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:50 AM

Sep 2013

You may be right, some may have done that, but no one I knew.

I'm a white woman and I've always thought he was brilliant as did everyone

I knew who voted for him

That, of course, doesn't mean that, like anyone, he can't make a mistake..

I'm a feminist, but I don't support every female democratic candidate, just because

they're females. I'm not a fan of Hillary, for instance, because I think she's too conservative.

Elizabeth Warren, on the other hand, is someone I could gladly support.

It's understandable that members of underrepresented groups, women, racial, religious and

sexual minorities, want to see one of their own rise to the highest position in the land.

That being said, I agree that it's foolish to support anyone solely on that basis.

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Maybe, just maybe, Obama is smarter than some of you [View all] Yavin4 Sep 2013 OP

Maybe, just maybe, some of you hero-worship the man like jr. high kids. polichick Sep 2013 #1

So it is hero worship to recognize someone else might be smarter than you are? treestar Sep 2013 #8

Of course not, but all this 3D chess stuff and "I got this" posters are juvenile. polichick Sep 2013 #10

The "3D chess stuff" and "I got this" is proven correct over and over and over again. tridim Sep 2013 #52

Yeah, it was 3D chess when he wouldn't consider single payer and 3D chess... polichick Sep 2013 #71

He tried to get single payer and Congress said no. tridim Sep 2013 #80

Sorry, single payer was off the table from the get-go... polichick Sep 2013 #82

Obama Needed All 60 Democrats In The Senate To Break The Filibuster DallasNE Sep 2013 #157

To break the filibuster that never happened AgingAmerican Sep 2013 #279

WE had both Houses of Congress, plus the Nurses... Octafish Sep 2013 #158

Yep, the WH traded single payer away early on... polichick Sep 2013 #167

No study the Congress, even that one treestar Sep 2013 #177

The people were for it - and also most Dems... polichick Sep 2013 #178

Then people need to friggin' vote for representatives who will vote for it treestar Sep 2013 #222

Who was "sitting around playing the victim"??? We were airing ads... polichick Sep 2013 #225

Well that's not very smart negotiating. You ask for more than what you want and settle for what you cui bono Sep 2013 #208

It's the latter. EOTE Sep 2013 #229

He took it off the table before the debate even took place. EOTE Sep 2013 #227

Not Liberal! Segami Sep 2013 #250

y-e-a-h...nothing but bitter anger. Sheepshank Sep 2013 #252

Do your homework. polichick Sep 2013 #259

perhpas taking off this filter you have and doing your own would be wiser Sheepshank Sep 2013 #264

My "filter" is policy - that's what I'm interested in, not personalities. polichick Sep 2013 #265

now you are not being completely honest here Sheepshank Sep 2013 #268

Where? Anyone I've worked with in this party knows it's all... polichick Sep 2013 #269

I suppose you know what talking out of one's ass is all about Sheepshank Sep 2013 #271

You make accusations you can't back up... polichick Sep 2013 #272

Another poor attempt to justify lobbing insults by reducing your meme to childish comebacks Sheepshank Sep 2013 #275

You're still not backing up your accusations - just babbling on as distracton. polichick Sep 2013 #276

You are asking me to back up your constant need to personally insult...that backing up? Sheepshank Sep 2013 #286

LOL - what you've proven is that you can't back up your claims... polichick Sep 2013 #287

He did not try for single payer, he never even fought for the public option. cui bono Sep 2013 #205

If Obama didn't want single payer and was never willing to fight for it, Sheepshank Sep 2013 #254

Who acknowledges that he's a good negotiator? cui bono Sep 2013 #273

I'm sorry, that is a lie Doctor_J Sep 2013 #221

It's become blindingly obvious to me over the last few decades Abq_Sarah Sep 2013 #224

Bullshit. He took it off the table before the debate even began. EOTE Sep 2013 #226

So you're claim is he didn't want single payer?! This is where these stupid positions loose all... uponit7771 Sep 2013 #96

If he wanted it, he would've allowed single-payer advocates... polichick Sep 2013 #107

BULL FUCKIN SHIT!!! "allowed" my ass, this is the winger "Obama is dictator" position so he can do.. uponit7771 Sep 2013 #110

You're sounding a bit unhinged. polichick Sep 2013 #126

Nah, just not accpeting BS this afternoon... uponit7771 Sep 2013 #132

No shit. Bobbie Jo Sep 2013 #137

you lose. veganlush Sep 2013 #156

Uh, no...Only according to you, it seems. n/t whathehell Sep 2013 #282

Yeah, a bit. n/t cui bono Sep 2013 #210

Huh? NealK Sep 2013 #134

Winger meme = Obama controls everything even congress so it doesn't matter what they do or think uponit7771 Sep 2013 #135

Unless you're talking about geopolitical squabbles that work out well, apparently. Marr Sep 2013 #143

Touche. n/t cui bono Sep 2013 #207

What an immature response. cui bono Sep 2013 #206

If you've watched Rachel Maddow you would know that Politifact has pretty much no credibilty. cui bono Sep 2013 #209

So if congress was to vote a non binding res for single payer in both house and senate uponit7771 Sep 2013 #217

You're not dealing with the reality of what happened, you're just making up a false scenario. cui bono Sep 2013 #219

Since you're concerned about stupidity.. whathehell Sep 2013 #236

that was really petty or is it petti, or pety, or peti Sheepshank Sep 2013 #255

Sorry, I don't agree...I'm seeing way too much of it from all quarters. whathehell Sep 2013 #262

Yeah, we've all heard that line a lot..... Sheepshank Sep 2013 #267

Yeah, but It seems you haven't heard it enough, especially if whathehell Sep 2013 #280

I think history will prove that it was indeed 3D chess. How many administrations have tried and.... Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #160

When you use terms like "haters" and "spoiled children" you give yourself away. polichick Sep 2013 #162

And being compared to a "hero-worshipping junior high kid" doesn't "give you away"? Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #163

"Maybe, just maybe, some of you hero-worship the man like jr. high kids." polichick Sep 2013 #164

As do I. So much for that mirror you tried to place in my hand. Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #165

Where's the "hating" behavior you refer to?... polichick Sep 2013 #168

You do know that some EU countries are moving to a market based healthcare system, don't you? Tarheel_Dem Sep 2013 #169

That's why it's "spoiled" to want single payer? Try again. polichick Sep 2013 #170

Because obviously it's only those who disagree with you who are biased? mythology Sep 2013 #223

Unlike those who think Obama is smarter than the whole world and always has... polichick Sep 2013 #237

He's only smart if he agrees lock step with you what to do treestar Sep 2013 #175

Where do you get that? I agree with him when I agree with him... polichick Sep 2013 #176

He can only be "wrong" or "mistaken" if he is NOT smart? whathehell Sep 2013 #240

Like when all the Banksters went to jail? Octafish Sep 2013 #151

I kinda agree there, but, see that they do it just in good fun, blm Sep 2013 #53

Some do it in good fun; some seem dead serious about it... polichick Sep 2013 #75

Geez - I hope they aren't dead serious about it. That would blm Sep 2013 #83

Juvenile and a bit deluded. earthside Sep 2013 #201

Yes, and I do think there's some psychological racism going on. It's not on a conscious level, Liberal_Stalwart71 Sep 2013 #93

LOL - if Obama voters don't think he's Superman, they're racists?! polichick Sep 2013 #108

I knew this bullshit was coming. I didn't call anyone a racist. Please learn how to read... Liberal_Stalwart71 Sep 2013 #111

So we're racists (but don't know it) because we don't think he's Superman... polichick Sep 2013 #120

Yep, just more of their binary thinking. RC Sep 2013 #136

When will we realize that "being smart", even exceptionally so, isn't Everything? whathehell Sep 2013 #233

acknowledging this "Fact" doesn't make anyone a mindless hero worshipper Sheepshank Sep 2013 #253

What a load. I agree with this administration plenty - when it serves... polichick Sep 2013 #258

You are absolutely correct. In the political arena especially, one's loyalties whathehell Sep 2013 #284

Thank-you! polichick Sep 2013 #285

You're very welcome. n/t whathehell Sep 2013 #288

i wouldnt go that far. but... "maybe, Obama is smarter than some of you" seabeyond Sep 2013 #2

Yeah, it bothers some people shenmue Sep 2013 #3

It was Putin's idea. avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #15

It's not as though repeated American complaints about chemical weapons weren't a hint. Orsino Sep 2013 #31

It could be good cop bad cop iandhr Sep 2013 #79

Cause Obama was about to hit Syria with some ice cream sandwhiches!? really?!!? Obama had NOTHING uponit7771 Sep 2013 #100

He's not as smart as Bay Boy Sep 2013 #4

Kind of hard to deny with a straight face in this case (assuming things go as they appear). Hoyt Sep 2013 #5

and maybe some of you are not even Americans at all and are cheering for failure of this President VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #6

So you are saying all foreigners are rooting against the United States? RC Sep 2013 #138

did the post say "all"? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2013 #139

Yeah, your post did and it did imply that if one was a foreigner they were against the United States RC Sep 2013 #142

A recurrent theme with that one: dgibby Sep 2013 #270

You done lost it now. nt laundry_queen Sep 2013 #172

does anyone here believe that? arrows2flowers Sep 2013 #7

I'm willing to admit that he's smarter than I am... joeybee12 Sep 2013 #9

No, it seems he can't, and if you DARE to suggest that, you are "racist". whathehell Sep 2013 #244

so are most presidents Enrique Sep 2013 #11

Oh Enrique, tblue Sep 2013 #213

He's certainly smarter than folks who write OPs like this cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #12

My thought too Hydra Sep 2013 #24

LOL! City Lights Sep 2013 #27

*chuckle* Starry Messenger Sep 2013 #45

Heheheh. Iggo Sep 2013 #64

Oh burn. Your scintillating intellect on display! Pretzel_Warrior Sep 2013 #90

exactly RetroLounge Sep 2013 #97

Obama would just laugh Skittles Sep 2013 #179

Oh gosh, Cthulhu2016, tblue Sep 2013 #214

He probably IS smarter than most -- What's that got to do with anything? whathehell Sep 2013 #239

Or OPs like this... SidDithers Sep 2013 #305

Three points DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #13

Race is important because a lot of people cannot handle an African American being smarter Yavin4 Sep 2013 #23

I think even the biggest bigot would concede there is somebody of a different race smarter than him. DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #26

How many Klan members you personally know? bobclark86 Sep 2013 #123

I know folks who have gripes with Jewish folks DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #127

I don't think any group of people -- any race, ethnicity, gender or religion -- whathehell Sep 2013 #291

I don't think any group has a monopoly on intelligence or wisdom DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #292

That's good, but I don't think that "the source of the animus" whathehell Sep 2013 #294

The reasons are multiple as well as irrational as is most if not all forms of bigotry./nt DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #295

I agree with most of that, but think it might have been better if you'd said that the first time, whathehell Sep 2013 #296

braggadocio ??? DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #298

Where did I suggest that "the belief that Jews are unintelligent is the basis of anti-semistism"? whathehell Sep 2013 #299

I'm losing track of this discussion. DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2013 #300

Okay. n/t whathehell Sep 2013 #301

Having worked with Klans members, and for those who don't believe they exist, yes, they do; also, freshwest Sep 2013 #152

To some degree that's likely, but, then they absolutely eviscerated Kerry, too. blm Sep 2013 #57

Maybe they think Kerry is just an ass HangOnKids Sep 2013 #74

I accept there are a lot of uninformed people in the media and everywhere. blm Sep 2013 #84

No, sorry they think he is an ass HangOnKids Sep 2013 #87

That says more about them than it does him. blm Sep 2013 #92

Yes, based off him following Obama...with ODS Kerry gets a pass uponit7771 Sep 2013 #104

i think there was some racism in those who made it seem like Kerry was running things JI7 Sep 2013 #195

Yeah, the was basically Robert Reich's angle. blm Sep 2013 #196

That may be true for some people. I have no problem admitting that Obama is far smarter ... spin Sep 2013 #98

Maybe on Free Republic...Not here...I think it may be YOU who has the race problem. whathehell Sep 2013 #243

2) Some people HATE... HATE with a PASSION to see their world view not validated..HATE!!! uponit7771 Sep 2013 #103

Yes, including you, it seems. whathehell Sep 2013 #241

And maybe, just maybe, he's not. ocpagu Sep 2013 #14

I voted for that man for a reason - not only is he brilliant, he also has a heart. Avalux Sep 2013 #16

If we had a "like" button, Rainngirl Sep 2013 #118

You know, I was almost onboard with this. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #17

I wouldn't doubt that cali Sep 2013 #18

Did you seriously just accuse DUer's of racism? Really? tkmorris Sep 2013 #19

Yes. I did. Yavin4 Sep 2013 #25

Definitely. I watched those groups whine about affirmative action as it really got rolling in the freshwest Sep 2013 #129

Excellent ! n/t jaysunb Sep 2013 #145

Yes, the accusation is made more than you might imagine. whathehell Sep 2013 #242

He is clearly highly intelligent. I doubt many hear here question that. GoneFishin Sep 2013 #20

Put the race card back in the deck LittleBlue Sep 2013 #21

I recced this just to unrec it. cali Sep 2013 #22

Are you African American? Yavin4 Sep 2013 #36

b.s. Enrique Sep 2013 #39

As I said in post 37 below LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #41

.... cali Sep 2013 #46

+1 totodeinhere Sep 2013 #49

I think I'll pull the gay card. David__77 Sep 2013 #60

Being a woman or disabled in this country is hardly comparitive to being a black in this country. lumpy Sep 2013 #212

"Being a woman or disabled in this country is hardly comparative to being black in this country" whathehell Sep 2013 #281

And yet the member that posted Puglover Sep 2013 #230

Thank you! whathehell Sep 2013 #245

i am african american, i think this thread is silly noiretextatique Sep 2013 #56

Yep, he's very smart. I also think he's cali Sep 2013 #61

thanks, cali noiretextatique Sep 2013 #73

Thank you, yes, I think he's exceptionally, smart, but even "smart" people make mistakes whathehell Sep 2013 #246

it is getting really irritating noiretextatique Sep 2013 #260

Yes, it is and I think it diverts us away from sensible discussions. n/t whathehell Sep 2013 #290

Wow, that's pretty assholish RetroLounge Sep 2013 #105

Being "assholish" is what DU has become Yavin4 Sep 2013 #113

Well, you're out in front of the pack with your racist bullshit RetroLounge Sep 2013 #115

If you're not racist, then my OP was not directed to you Yavin4 Sep 2013 #122

I'm often offended by stupid posts RetroLounge Sep 2013 #124

Thank you. whathehell Sep 2013 #249

bwahahahaha. curious way to admit what you are. cali Sep 2013 #131

fuck that shit.. frylock Sep 2013 #150

As a gay man, I find your post offensive. sibelian Sep 2013 #171

Are you Female?...Are you Gay?...Are you Disabled? whathehell Sep 2013 #247

As an ambitious politician he's aces. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2013 #28

Obama is smart avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #29

and Putin has nice man nipples n/t Tveil Sep 2013 #44

Your "thinly veiled" accusation of RACISM bobduca Sep 2013 #30

I missed the "thinly veiled" part... the OP states it. cthulu2016 Sep 2013 #32

yeah i should have air quoted it like you did, that was the intention. bobduca Sep 2013 #35

Nothing thinly about it. Yavin4 Sep 2013 #38

Yes everyone who opposes Obama is a racist bobduca Sep 2013 #40

DU has become infested with Paulbots Yavin4 Sep 2013 #42

Yes everyone who opposes Obama is a racist bobduca Sep 2013 #48

and everyone who opposes war is a paulbot.. frylock Sep 2013 #154

another false accusation from you. cali Sep 2013 #50

Not everyone who opposes Obama on certain issues is a Paulbot or racist NuclearDem Sep 2013 #58

low hanging fruit. sibelian Sep 2013 #235

Nah, just those who use racist memes, talking points, perspectives and reflexive hate might be uponit7771 Sep 2013 #106

Can you please point out some DUers using racists memes? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #182

Where on DU have you seen "racist memes, talking points, perspectives and 'reflective hate'? whathehell Sep 2013 #289

Tell us about the 80 Communists in the House, Allen West. OnyxCollie Sep 2013 #85

yeh, no shit.. frylock Sep 2013 #153

Well here's an easy test LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #180

and yet you use one perceived insult, to add your own insult those who support Obama via BOG? Sheepshank Sep 2013 #256

Considering he isn't spending his time posting random shit on message boards snooper2 Sep 2013 #33

So special. HappyMe Sep 2013 #77

Or maybe he's smarter than you. And more corrupt....:) grahamhgreen Sep 2013 #34

Yes, Obama is very smart LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #37

His problem is he thinks he is smarter and more persuasive than he actually is. dkf Sep 2013 #43

Of course he's smart, but that doesn't mean that he's always right. totodeinhere Sep 2013 #47

Even though it appears we may get a favorable outcome (no intervention in Syria) Maedhros Sep 2013 #51

Because.. philosslayer Sep 2013 #65

Yes - there are those whose political sense of well-being is so dependent upon the President's image Maedhros Sep 2013 #148

No one disagree with Maedhros Shivering Jemmy Sep 2013 #181

How's that strawman working for you? LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #184

Everything works fine for me Shivering Jemmy Sep 2013 #186

Except logic LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #187

Nah that works great too. Shivering Jemmy Sep 2013 #188

Yeah, only racists complain about his bumbling incoherent diplomacy on Syria NoOneMan Sep 2013 #54

The most extreme left in this country find President Obama to be a disappointment because he has not msanthrope Sep 2013 #55

No. LWolf Sep 2013 #306

Somebody better go tell the extreme Left they don't exist. mt msanthrope Sep 2013 #307

They don't exist here. LWolf Sep 2013 #308

Oh..they are here. The "Rand Paul/Putin" fan club is proof of that. nt msanthrope Sep 2013 #309

Er...no. LWolf Sep 2013 #310

I think that's part of the problem here. Obama is a brilliant man. Zen Democrat Sep 2013 #59

+1,000. freshwest Sep 2013 #193

Nah.. Most here know and acknowledge his brilliance..They just don't confuse it with infallibility whathehell Sep 2013 #293

My my, the lefty version of "Palin-envy" stupidicus Sep 2013 #62

He's smarter than somebody, that's for sure. Iggo Sep 2013 #63

Yep, that must be it . . . another_liberal Sep 2013 #66

Not maybe Jessy169 Sep 2013 #67

Oh, I'm pretty sure he's way smarter than me tularetom Sep 2013 #68

Nice conspiracy theory you got there. OnyxCollie Sep 2013 #69

you cheapen legitimate arguments and debates about matters of race with this bigtree Sep 2013 #70

This OP reminds me..... ClarkJonathanKent Sep 2013 #72

Ya' think! Scurrilous Sep 2013 #76

....put together Schema Thing Sep 2013 #78

You mean... iandhr Sep 2013 #81

That's possible. But then again,... badtoworse Sep 2013 #86

:puke: 99th_Monkey Sep 2013 #88

"but maybe he's better at this than you are at whatever you do for a living..." R. Daneel Olivaw Sep 2013 #89

this is just about trying to shut down criticism of the President cali Sep 2013 #109

But the unintentional irony that comes from them is so very amusing. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #114

I've seen this behavior up close and personal Maedhros Sep 2013 #189

AMEN!! The self-righteous indignation is simply breathtaking. I am 100% confident in this president. Liberal_Stalwart71 Sep 2013 #91

Maybe you're using race to cover up for your own inadequacies. last1standing Sep 2013 #94

boom! frylock Sep 2013 #155

Yeah, he's pretty smart. So? RetroLounge Sep 2013 #95

Single word answer should suffice......... BrainDrain Sep 2013 #99

No maybe about it. The MSM and RWNJs are apoplectic. CakeGrrl Sep 2013 #101

he has certainly killed more women and kids than I have or ever will. Is that a sign of smartness? msongs Sep 2013 #102

Obama is precognitively omniscient Jackpine Radical Sep 2013 #112

Precomniscient! He's Precomniscient! R. Daneel Olivaw Sep 2013 #128

reccing this is contemptible cali Sep 2013 #116

Reccing. n/t Cali_Democrat Sep 2013 #185

It's arguably racist to support him tblue Sep 2013 #215

Thank you, I agree, but supporting him with 'low expectations"? whathehell Sep 2013 #257

By "low expectations" tblue Sep 2013 #302

Okay, I get what you're saying.. whathehell Sep 2013 #303

I am definitely prejudiced felix_numinous Sep 2013 #117

oy nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #119

Hearty K&R. You'd think they'd learn by now Whisp Sep 2013 #121

He seems to be smarter than me. salib Sep 2013 #125

He probably is smarter than me. vi5 Sep 2013 #130

Or maybe, just maybe... krispos42 Sep 2013 #133

Right on Yavin4 rury Sep 2013 #140

Yeah...this multi-level chess player is AWESOME! Roland99 Sep 2013 #141

Maybe that idea makes you happy. sibelian Sep 2013 #144

Everything is by Perspective 4Q2u2 Sep 2013 #146

And then maybe he's not as smart as you think he is. Leontius Sep 2013 #147

ODS Type 2.. frylock Sep 2013 #149

Oh good, we're trotting out the Criticize-Pres.-Obama-therefore-racist thread again. DRoseDARs Sep 2013 #159

Really? Then where is single payer? Safetykitten Sep 2013 #161

he's smarter than the vast majority here Pretzel_Warrior Sep 2013 #166

Maybe it has jack shit to do with anything. Some people like to fight the power IronLionZion Sep 2013 #173

Another accusation of racism. pa28 Sep 2013 #174

'Some of you'? So you are leaving yourself as an exclusion in the 'you'? Rex Sep 2013 #183

Shit like that is why I don't take you fans seriously. Union Scribe Sep 2013 #190

I think without accusing anyone of "racism" that Cha Sep 2013 #191

Boink. Scurrilous Sep 2013 #192

I'm damned sure that I'm better at MY job than Obama is at MY job. MH1 Sep 2013 #194

Maybe some of you try to paint being anti-war as being racist. former9thward Sep 2013 #197

did I mention that smoking pot stimulates micro-glial growth? n/t nebenaube Sep 2013 #198

And maybe some of us are smarter than he is Doctor_J Sep 2013 #199

No, none of us are. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #248

And maybe it's not always about "smarts" jimlup Sep 2013 #200

Maybe you have no idea where you are posting PowerToThePeople Sep 2013 #202

How did this get out of the BOG? Couldnt bait any flames there? nm rhett o rick Sep 2013 #203

So basically if we disagree with the president we're incompetent at our jobs or racists. cui bono Sep 2013 #204

As for me... Mira Sep 2013 #211

ah wouldn't DU be so much better if it was a place where would could truly celebrate our President, Douglas Carpenter Sep 2013 #216

I am not a politician. Makes me automatically better than any one of them. idwiyo Sep 2013 #218

so is Henry Kissinger Enrique Sep 2013 #220

enjoy your crumbs, knave. KG Sep 2013 #228

Maybe, just maybe, being exceptionally smart isn't the Be and End All of Everything. whathehell Sep 2013 #231

Maybe some can just not deal LWolf Sep 2013 #232

He hides it well. n/t winter is coming Sep 2013 #234

Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #238

He's certainly smarter than his personality cult. kenny blankenship Sep 2013 #251

+1 noiretextatique Sep 2013 #263

No War! orenbus Sep 2013 #261

Or maybe simply that Obama isnt an warmongering idiot... DCBob Sep 2013 #266

Holy shit. This post got 80+ recs. Is DU fucking insane? n/t Dawgs Sep 2013 #274

yes......... madrchsod Sep 2013 #283

And maybe, just maybe, some of us are smarter than him? AgingAmerican Sep 2013 #277

I don't know if he's smarter than most of us but he definitely has more information than ANY of us. OregonBlue Sep 2013 #278

as someone else put it so eloquently so long ago - it is good to see the same philosphy here on DU Douglas Carpenter Sep 2013 #297

DU rec... SidDithers Sep 2013 #304