General Discussion

arendt

(5,078 posts)

5. Wow! The man is channeling Jacques Ellul...

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:29 AM

Oct 2013

"Every time a church tried to act through the propaganda devices accepted by
an epoch, the truth and authenticity of Christianity were debased...In such moments
(when acting through propaganda), Christianity ceases to be an overwhelming
power and spiritual adventure and becomes institutionalized in all its expressions
and compromised in all its actions. It serves everybody as an ideology with the
greatest of ease, and tends to be a hoax...Thus reduced to nothing more than an
ideology, Christianity will be treated as such by the propagandist...this ideology will
no longer be Christianity. It will be just another doctrine."

- Jacques Ellul "Propaganda"

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

146 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Pope Francis describes �ideological Christians� as a �serious illness� within the Church [View all] kpete Oct 2013 OP

This belongs in the religion forum el_bryanto Oct 2013 #1

I must disagree Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #10

Every Church has members that are politically motivated el_bryanto Oct 2013 #12

It's a very large change in political philosophy being driven by the church's new leader jeff47 Oct 2013 #14

+1 Hekate Oct 2013 #16

If this article specifically referenced those issues than it'd be fair game el_bryanto Oct 2013 #19

So you need someone to hand the implications to you? jeff47 Oct 2013 #20

You have to ask yourself why the guidelines involving religion exist el_bryanto Oct 2013 #21

If the only thing being discussed was Catholicism jeff47 Oct 2013 #25

Putting a lot of effort into getting this thread banished are you? tkmorris Oct 2013 #29

+1 Myrina Oct 2013 #40

I try to be consistent - in general I approve of this story el_bryanto Oct 2013 #41

yeah I was wondering about that myself. gopiscrap Oct 2013 #81

I respectfully disagree w/your initial premise War Horse Oct 2013 #61

Exactly right, and it belongs in GD CanonRay Oct 2013 #119

Protestant churches are fairly defuse Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #31

I agree. It is a big change. nt Mojorabbit Oct 2013 #84

In much the same way that getting run over by a car is an issue for bicyclists that do not own cars. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #37

Ah, an apt anlogy Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #63

Agreed. The local catholic church put up "Vote for Life" signs during the last presidential Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2013 #96

That's an ideological response pscot Oct 2013 #17

well done, pscot. I agree heartily with you. They are roguevalley Oct 2013 #72

I know personally a few right-leaning politically active Catholics who will be troubled by this. hunter Oct 2013 #36

I respectfully disagree w/your initial premise War Horse Oct 2013 #47

I would also disagree Jeff In Milwaukee Oct 2013 #100

It's gratifying that this particular time it hasn't broken down into a spat that doesn't go anywhere el_bryanto Oct 2013 #102

This affects us all. Brewinblue Oct 2013 #121

I like this Pope in comparison to his predecessors. Xyzse Oct 2013 #2

Yes Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #87

I guess from now on I need to go with "Does a bear shit in the woods?" Scuba Oct 2013 #3

It fixes it a bit if you put a Trademark symbol after 'Catholic'. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #42

Wow! What a huge step in the right direction. antiquie Oct 2013 #4

Wow! The man is channeling Jacques Ellul... arendt Oct 2013 #5

And St Francis of Assisi Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #101

Pope Francis is showing he follows a path we could all follow and it is Thinkingabout Oct 2013 #127

Yeah. At least he is trying to be better than his predecessor. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #131

Yes and if many more religious leaders would follow his thinking instead of the hate this Thinkingabout Oct 2013 #132

True prayer? Cartoonist Oct 2013 #6

He is speaking of faith, not science me b zola Oct 2013 #76

SEPERATION of Church and State.... gotta love it. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #88

Agreed! me b zola Oct 2013 #93

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #98

So? Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #89

Things I am not tolerant of Cartoonist Oct 2013 #125

Baby out with the bathwater much? Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #128

Is it true that when you get high up in church power, that the real truth is learned snooper2 Oct 2013 #7

Sounds like a short story of mine that was just published. Pab Sungenis Oct 2013 #64

This from a man who got famous by barking from balconies that gay people are Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #8

Shhh! Don't disrupt the lovefest by calling attention to reality, please! Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #13

given that he is the leader of over a billion people roguevalley Oct 2013 #74

See post 90 - two different popes Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #91

You are flat out dead wrong, I am quoting Francis. Deal in facts please. Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #108

No source is not a quote. Source please. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #129

Pope Francis has indeed made some very awful rightwing statements... Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #120

No source - not buying it. nt Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #130

Here: Arugula Latte Oct 2013 #133

Thank you. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #135

The fact that he fails on some subjects doesn't mean he fails in all subjects. (nt) jeff47 Oct 2013 #15

It does since he represents himself as the infallable supreme power of the church. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #43

I'm presuming the person I replied to isn't Catholic, since they are questioning the Pope. (nt) jeff47 Oct 2013 #45

This is false uponit7771 Oct 2013 #54

Oh? Do tell. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #60

The pope is NOT infallible at all times joeglow3 Oct 2013 #113

Perhaps you could start with the simple research of actually READING MY POST. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #117

Although I am an atheist, I keep track of what popes say, because they tblue37 Oct 2013 #83

Thank you. Not only do you know the difference between Benedict and Francis.... Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #92

He is wrong to count himself among the righteous rather than among those Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #70

Wrong Pope. See post 90. Pope Francis is NOT like Pope Benedict. AT ALL. nt Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #99

No, correct Pope. I am quoting Francis. Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #109

OK I get what happened in Argentina. So why do you think he changed his position? Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #138

+ a gazillion Vashta Nerada Oct 2013 #26

I've heard it said that the view from the Vatican balcony changes some men. TygrBright Oct 2013 #35

+1 daleanime Oct 2013 #55

How sweet of you. Is that what I said, that people never change? No. Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #71

We Catholics believe in the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pab Sungenis Oct 2013 #65

So what? He and his hierarchy still attack gay people and oppose our equality Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #73

I think you have the wrong Pope in mind. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #90

No, I am quoting Francis as Bergoglio. Sorry, I am not confused, you are in denial Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #107

That was Ratzinger, "God's Rottweiler" Celefin Oct 2013 #94

Wrong, I am quoting and speaking of Francis, if you folks can't accept facts you Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #110

And you don't get to baselessly insult all of 'us folks', sorry. Celefin Oct 2013 #122

More benefit of the doubt and more sharing info without insulting is a good idea. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #139

I like Francis a lot. Best Pope in my lifetime. distantearlywarning Oct 2013 #9

This sounds all well and good Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #11

There's plenty of "actual action" being personally instigated by Pope Francis. Heads are rolling. Hekate Oct 2013 #22

He is cleaning up the Vatican's dodgy finances, Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #34

Every other breath he tells Church leadership to "pay more attention to looking after the poor... Hekate Oct 2013 #49

I have been paying attention Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #62

He's getting a revolution started... Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #86

Sounds like the Ryans and Santorums HockeyMom Oct 2013 #18

I bet they don't like this Pope... hunter Oct 2013 #39

Ditto to that! SoapBox Oct 2013 #46

We're going to screw the Poor/Middle Class, HockeyMom Oct 2013 #51

Francis is opposed to abortion and gay marriage, in his home nation he was Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #75

Need a source on that. Pope Benedict YES was. But Pope Francis has spoken up for gays as people. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #106

Are you claiming Francis is pro choice? I've posted about the gay attacks many times. Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #111

Maybe since it passed in Argentina and he saw the results, he had to start seeing reason. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #134

You equate being gay with gluttony, demand sources and when you get them Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #115

Naw... being gay is just "an activity" theHandpuppet Oct 2013 #116

I am surprised that not one of the Francis fans had the guts to respond to the Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #118

Since I responded to this in another post. I'll keep this short. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #141

Why are you acting like I am anti-gay? I'm not. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #137

NO I was at work at 10:05am. Nice try. nt Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #136

I hope he has food tasters... If not he will soon suddenly die imo. Lobo27 Oct 2013 #23

Maybe that's why he lives in the hostel and eats with the other guys. bklyncowgirl Oct 2013 #27

Religion, at its very core... awoke_in_2003 Oct 2013 #24

Exhibit A: Ideological christian Republicans have closed the door on Jesus, except as a puppet Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2013 #28

And said ZERO words about gays. closeupready Oct 2013 #32

More Popes and Christians could take a clue from that. nt Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #142

And flipped over the tables of the money changers... AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #44

Yeah, when are we going to go after all the CEO's and Bank Moguls that nearly destroyed US? Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #143

Go Francis!! A huge improvement over Pope Ratzinger 99th_Monkey Oct 2013 #30

Sounds Like He Is Defining The Heirarchy Of The Catholic Church DallasNE Oct 2013 #33

did he sell the vatican treasures and give the money to the poor yet? nt msongs Oct 2013 #38

Not yet, but if he follows in the original footsteps of St Francis... it might happen. Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #144

I love this guy..... AnneD Oct 2013 #48

Same here Hekate Oct 2013 #50

Me too!!! Beacool Oct 2013 #77

So do I. And neither am I. But DevonRex Oct 2013 #80

Can't see the forest for the trees...... AnneD Oct 2013 #114

I've always likened it to having to follow a recipe DevonRex Oct 2013 #123

As one cook to another I agree... AnneD Oct 2013 #124

So Frankie..... Wounded Bear Oct 2013 #52

Republicans are the Pharisees of our time saynotoplutocrats Oct 2013 #53

Welcome to DU gopiscrap Oct 2013 #67

When I feed the poor, they call me saint. When I ask why so many are poor, they call me communist saynotoplutocrats Oct 2013 #145

yup I agree and I remember as a kid listening to Vatican officials yelling about it gopiscrap Oct 2013 #146

�ideological Christians� AlbertCat Oct 2013 #56

I'm warming to this pope dickthegrouch Oct 2013 #57

1 more thing they'll hate Catholics for FreakinDJ Oct 2013 #58

I'm say this as someone who had dumped a metric to of criticism on the catholic church recently Kurska Oct 2013 #59

If he continues with this sort of doctrinal humility . . . markpkessinger Oct 2013 #66

Or Lutheran gopiscrap Oct 2013 #69

yup gopiscrap Oct 2013 #68

Until he stops covering up for child rapists he has no moral authority to speak about anything. nt Demo_Chris Oct 2013 #78

NAILED IT! liberal N proud Oct 2013 #79

As an ex Catholic, I have to say that I am surprised and happy with the new Pope. I like what he is Pisces Oct 2013 #82

YES!!! Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #85

Give that man some time. Celefin Oct 2013 #95

A catholic friend of mine said they're going to have to kill this pope. He is not uphodling the RW Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2013 #97

"ideologies are rigid, always. " Sunlei Oct 2013 #103

If this guy had been pope 25 years ago . . . LumosMaxima Oct 2013 #104

Republican Jesus wept William Seger Oct 2013 #105

The mythical Jesus would vomit if he saw the Vatican. RedCappedBandit Oct 2013 #112

Comparative Religions show that the Creation Story, even though scientifically questioned as a myth, libdem4life Oct 2013 #126

I think I'm starting to like this Pope Francis guy. He's way cooler than Pope Hitler Youth was. nt Electric Monk Oct 2013 #140