General Discussion

LumosMaxima

(585 posts)

11. It's not really about "saving babies."

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:49 PM

Nov 2013

It's a direct attack on women's self-determination. The ability to control one's own body is the most fundamental human right imaginable and essential to exercising any other kind of independence. THAT is what the anti-abortion crowd really objects to. Their position is, ultimately, a way of denying full personhood to women. If anyone other than the individual woman controls her reproduction, she is not a person, but the property of society, a resource to be managed.

The entire debate comes down to that: are women people or not? Anti-choicers say no, they are not people, and therefore not entitled to full autonomy. These same folks claim to be all about individual rights, so I have pointed out the contradiction to them, and it drives them NUTS. They believe in individual rights, but not full individual rights for women, which means that they do not perceive women as full individuals. I've never yet had one come up with a meaningful rebuttal.

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Why would anyone care whether a woman has an abortion or not? [View all] boston bean Nov 2013 OP

Playing devil's advocate quinnox Nov 2013 #1

I'm just curious why you wanted to play devils advocate using that reasoning? boston bean Nov 2013 #4

I had to think of a scenario where it would be imperative for women to have babies quinnox Nov 2013 #8

Species come and go leftstreet Nov 2013 #23

touche! quinnox Nov 2013 #28

But species themselves fight for their own survival marshall Nov 2013 #264

Those same people want adultery to be rare marshall Nov 2013 #265

With 7 billion of us packing this planet, it is not only no longer imperative, and Warpy Nov 2013 #119

So, by that logic... dchill Nov 2013 #33

I would say yes, if using that logic quinnox Nov 2013 #43

"it is very complicated." dchill Nov 2013 #55

Agreed! quinnox Nov 2013 #61

. dchill Nov 2013 #73

I would suggest you take care of your own personal decisions Whisp Nov 2013 #44

I agree, it is a weak argument quinnox Nov 2013 #52

yeh, I know. n/t Whisp Nov 2013 #60

You don't have to go nearly as far as the end of the world thesquanderer Nov 2013 #123

The position should be it's her body and she is not willing to share it with a parasitic infestation idwiyo Nov 2013 #128

What is a "wanted foetus"? rug Nov 2013 #133

That which will become a baby (human in this case) ufter birth. idwiyo Nov 2013 #136

Is it a parasite? rug Nov 2013 #138

Yes, it is. It can not survive on it's own, it feeds off it's host, it alters it's host to avoid idwiyo Nov 2013 #143

So, viability is your test of when it ceases to be a parasite. rug Nov 2013 #146

It remains a parasite until after it's born. idwiyo Nov 2013 #151

So your test is not viability but placental feeding. rug Nov 2013 #152

Yes I do. idwiyo Nov 2013 #156

Clearly it does not meet the biological criteria for a parasite throughout a pregnacy. rug Nov 2013 #158

Which biological criteria it doesn't meet? idwiyo Nov 2013 #163

Interspecies. rug Nov 2013 #164

"an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) idwiyo Nov 2013 #169

Can you cite an example of parasitism within the same species? rug Nov 2013 #171

parasitic twin idwiyo Nov 2013 #174

Its etiology is in the pregnancy. rug Nov 2013 #177

Deep vein thrombosis, varicouse veins, uterus prolapse, urinary tract infections, idwiyo Nov 2013 #180

Now you're being silly. If they share vital organs or systems, the benefit is life. rug Nov 2013 #181

Parasitic twin is not a simbiont. It's called 'parasitic' for a reason. One example is enough to idwiyo Nov 2013 #183

Some birds lay their eggs in others' nests. Is that it? rug Nov 2013 #188

You made a false statement, I provided evidence that disproved it. One example is enough to do so. idwiyo Nov 2013 #197

Actually, no, you haven't. rug Nov 2013 #202

Yes, I did, with evidence. idwiyo Nov 2013 #204

Saying it twice doe not make it evidence. rug Nov 2013 #206

Please provide some evidence to support your statement, if you disagree. idwiyo Nov 2013 #212

Can't prove a negative. I can't think of a single example of intraspecies parasitism. rug Nov 2013 #213

You made a statement that there exists only interspecific parasitism. Prove it, please. idwiyo Nov 2013 #221

Read the prior post. Produce an example of inraspecies parasitism. rug Nov 2013 #227

Parastic twins, brood parasitism. I am sorry that scientific community disagree with you. idwiyo Nov 2013 #231

You're going around in circles. rug Nov 2013 #232

Those two items are proof of intra-specific parasitism. Meaning you made a false statement. idwiyo Nov 2013 #236

The bird eggs are more analagous to fostering than parasitism. rug Nov 2013 #239

The brood parasitism is a form of parasitism. What it reminds you of is irrelevant. idwiyo Nov 2013 #250

What's so special about birth? MicaelS Nov 2013 #184

It's a foetus until after it was born. It will become an infant after it was born. idwiyo Nov 2013 #189

First, a C-section is a birth REP Nov 2013 #201

A lot of women (and men) started out as an 'unwanted parasitic foetus' as you've hooverville29 Nov 2013 #242

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Can you clarify please? idwiyo Nov 2013 #243

That person is just spewing bagger talking points kydo Nov 2013 #261

Thank you for heads-up. idwiyo Nov 2013 #274

Agree, that shows what right wingers are really about treestar Nov 2013 #168

Er, a woman can't make babies treestar Nov 2013 #167

Sorry, but this is too silly to even entertain. Why even post it? cui bono Nov 2013 #200

DURec leftstreet Nov 2013 #2

Being for a woman's right to choose and whether or not it's a rare choice Lex Nov 2013 #3

Yes, I've seen a lot of that lately. EOTE Nov 2013 #12

K & R Thinkingabout Nov 2013 #57

Why should we care about birth control then? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #5

Those are choices people make. boston bean Nov 2013 #7

I'm saying that if people practice contraception bolstered by education, abortions will be rare.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #16

Why do you care whether there are 10 or 20 abortions? boston bean Nov 2013 #17

Why do you care if there are 10 instead of 20? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #26

I can see you don't have much more to say on the subject, boston bean Nov 2013 #30

LOL ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #36

You've changed to makes "pregnancy" rare? boston bean Nov 2013 #42

Yeah sure.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #47

abortion: safe, legal, accessible. unwanted pregnancies: rare PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #53

Why wouldn't you? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #258

Who said you must care? By any means, use abortion as birth control, why the hell not? idwiyo Nov 2013 #129

It's a matter of smart choices passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #154

Women don't want to have an abortion...that's why. Auntie Bush Nov 2013 #278

I didn't want to have hernia surgery. boston bean Nov 2013 #279

Because it's a sad outcome LittleBlue Nov 2013 #6

What makes it so sad to you? boston bean Nov 2013 #9

I've never had one LittleBlue Nov 2013 #18

Shit I was relieved as hell when I had mine. ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #24

Christ LittleBlue Nov 2013 #35

Anecdotes are nice; everyone as one. I have peer-reviewed studies to share. REP Nov 2013 #80

Well gee LittleBlue Nov 2013 #94

"Fewer" REP Nov 2013 #101

Don't you think that measure is a bit elitist? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #107

No, because that's not how it works REP Nov 2013 #150

nice post fishwax Nov 2013 #175

Thanks :-) REP Nov 2013 #223

I know and a woman that doesn't want a baby shouldn't make her own choices? boston bean Nov 2013 #27

And you don't think you do the same based on your personal perspective? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #32

Some women do. I'm not denying that, but it's not a reason to limit other womens choices. boston bean Nov 2013 #34

That's how you would answer her? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #45

I would of course sympathize for a friend, even if I disagreed. boston bean Nov 2013 #51

Well, this is why I asked you specifically ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #67

Saying they want it to be rare, because they think other women might feel badly... boston bean Nov 2013 #76

See my post #80: studies find abortion does not effect well-being REP Nov 2013 #105

Who said that? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #38

A lot people have medical procedures that are unplesant Lex Nov 2013 #31

And neither do I. nt LittleBlue Nov 2013 #41

i had surgery for a incarcerated femoral hernia. boston bean Nov 2013 #267

i've never had one either, but DesertFlower Nov 2013 #108

FFS, not that shit again. No, it's not sad, traumatising, or horrible. That's a load of bullshit. idwiyo Nov 2013 #135

is it possible passiveporcupine Nov 2013 #159

+100000 Tien1985 Nov 2013 #270

There is no "expulsion of the fetus" with an aspiration curretage REP Nov 2013 #282

i know plenty of people who have had abortions without experiencing sorrow La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #59

that has also been my experience. boston bean Nov 2013 #65

i think when people say, it is sad, they mean "the women should be sad" La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #68

True it is shaming. boston bean Nov 2013 #91

+1 ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #139

+2 idwiyo Nov 2013 #173

me, too. most felt great relief (myself included) PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #70

exactly. i can think of about 10 women i knew in college La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #71

I don't believe that. newcriminal Nov 2013 #86

oh, bullshit PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #89

you forgot sorrrow newcriminal Nov 2013 #95

you're post is full of shit PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #100

Your opinion, just like my opinion of the previous post. newcriminal Nov 2013 #104

nope, it's a fact. it's based on nothing but the view you have whilst your head is up your ass PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #109

It is obvious by your responses, who is the one with something up their ass. newcriminal Nov 2013 #114

How do you think a woman would feel if she is forced to be an incubator? cui bono Nov 2013 #132

Which is exactly my point. newcriminal Nov 2013 #148

I wasn't intending to agree with you or trying to make your point, cui bono Nov 2013 #193

I know you weren't agreeing with me. newcriminal Nov 2013 #217

I can tell you how this woman felt: REP Nov 2013 #195

If you are telling me you felt no sorrow after having an abortion newcriminal Nov 2013 #208

Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. None. No regret, sorrow, sadness - nothing but overwhelming relief REP Nov 2013 #215

If you felt "No regret, sorrow, sadness - nothing but overwhelming relief" newcriminal Nov 2013 #234

It's not a qualification; it's just a fact. REP Nov 2013 #237

Then believe science. REP Nov 2013 #192

I read this the first time you posted it. newcriminal Nov 2013 #207

did you miss the "do not experience regret... " part? PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #214

Seems to have missed the majority of the studies' content ... REP Nov 2013 #222

"It"? There's more than one study; none of them say what you'd like them to REP Nov 2013 #220

How about me? ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #276

i meant to write this to you but accidentally posted it as a thread La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #75

Several of my friends have had abortions and felt nothing but relief. smokey nj Nov 2013 #83

We over glamorise child birth... awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #110

I knew a young girl PumpkinAle Nov 2013 #126

the frequency is a medical matter, not a political one PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #10

+1 boston bean Nov 2013 #14

It is not just reducing unwanted pregnancies. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #165

A linguistic trick of affirming the right to abortion while simultaneously devaluing it.... PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #166

Saying it is a linguistic trick doesn't make it one. n/t Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #170

Really??!?! Go read the link which explains why I think that. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #172

Saying it in 6 paragraphs doesn't make it so. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #176

got it. yet you feel the need to keep using the BS 'rare' mantra without having adult conversations PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #178

No. But when I try to have adult conversations Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #179

Thanks gawd pro-choicers outnumber forced-birthers on DU. I can just imagine "adult" conversations idwiyo Nov 2013 #185

Can you read? newcriminal Nov 2013 #196

Ms Toad is "pro-life". That is by definition anti-choice, or forced-birther. idwiyo Nov 2013 #224

How many forced-birthers do you see on DU? You should report it. rug Nov 2013 #198

Any person who is anti-abortion or wants to restrict abortions is a forced-birther by definition. idwiyo Nov 2013 #203

I take it you believe there should be no restriction abortion until the moment of birth. rug Nov 2013 #205

I think that there should be no restrictions. Absolutely. Woman and doctors can be trusted. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #210

Do you have a link to that? rug Nov 2013 #216

Here you go PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #218

Thanks. rug Nov 2013 #219

You keep saying you don't join these discussions. JTFrog Nov 2013 #228

Reading comprehension is a really useful skill. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #241

This message was self-deleted by its author JTFrog Nov 2013 #259

+1 newcriminal Nov 2013 #182

It's not really about "saving babies." LumosMaxima Nov 2013 #11

No one should care. hamsterjill Nov 2013 #13

Whenever the abortion conversation comes up, I mentally replace the word LanternWaste Nov 2013 #15

+1. SammyWinstonJack Nov 2013 #25

Know what I wanna see? tkmorris Nov 2013 #19

Really? I'm discussing. That is your categorization of how you read my comments. boston bean Nov 2013 #29

And the jury results are in... aikoaiko Nov 2013 #39

Disgusting. Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #63

Who knows? ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #20

The problem with "rare" gollygee Nov 2013 #21

That is the real issue. boston bean Nov 2013 #22

Isn't it ok to work toward reducing unwanted pregnancies. aikoaiko Nov 2013 #37

It's an invasive medical procedure. It carries risk. MADem Nov 2013 #40

Abortion is medical care for many women. boston bean Nov 2013 #46

I'm not saying there will or will not always be a need, and I'm not going to MADem Nov 2013 #72

So you can see the issue with the framing. I assume so because you do not want to quantify "rare". boston bean Nov 2013 #74

You brought the word up--so I should think you should define it. MADem Nov 2013 #81

LOL. You are the one that wants to use it. You quantify it. boston bean Nov 2013 #82

No, I don't think so, and anyone reading this thread can see who first used the term. nt MADem Nov 2013 #85

LOL. Anyone reading will know that the person wanting to use the term boston bean Nov 2013 #87

I invite your attention to the first sentence in your OP message text. MADem Nov 2013 #90

I invite you to comprehend the post. I don't think it can be quantified. boston bean Nov 2013 #102

If "rare" can't be quantified, then why are you demanding that I do that? MADem Nov 2013 #280

in context. the OP is arguing AGAINST ITS USE. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #88

I'm not "arguing for" anything but good medical care that will obviate the need for MADem Nov 2013 #93

Then say that. boston bean Nov 2013 #103

Well, I have, repeatedly, and many times down the years, too, and if you weren't MADem Nov 2013 #112

You were contending that the use of "rare" meant that. boston bean Nov 2013 #113

Meant what? Rare means rare? You introduced the word. MADem Nov 2013 #251

Every woman who could have an abortion otherwise has to go through pregnancy and birth gollygee Nov 2013 #48

No--not necessarily--and that's none of my business, anyway. MADem Nov 2013 #58

yes NO ONE says this about other medical procedures La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #62

I do--look at angioplasty. There's a lot of argument about that as a procedure. MADem Nov 2013 #78

there is something terribly dishonest about saying that a procedure La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #79

Your use of the word "dishonest" is both loaded and offensive. It's also uncivil. MADem Nov 2013 #84

WRONG! There's pubic relations campaigns against wiping out cancer & getting vaccinated>>> KittyWampus Nov 2013 #147

wipe out CANCER not cancer treatment. La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #240

By saying they would like it to be rare covers every one of the things you mention. I just appleannie1 Nov 2013 #49

Medieval chastity belt and the original witch hunt fixation. Current day Republican values. libdem4life Nov 2013 #50

For the sake of argument One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #54

Hahahaha!!!! Please find me one, ONE, case where a woman had an abortion Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #162

Theoretical Construct One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #288

Do you realize how offensive and misogynistic this post is? smokey nj Nov 2013 #209

An example of absurdity One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #285

ever hear of Canada? PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #286

Where do Dr. Ethics come from? One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #289

Bullshit. It is offensive, misogynistic, unnecessary and dangerous. smokey nj Nov 2013 #287

Sorry you feel that way One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #290

That view caused the death of Dr. George Tiller. smokey nj Nov 2013 #291

Equating my view to Dr. Tiller's killer? One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #293

Your "theoretical" argument is a bullet point for anti-choicers. smokey nj Nov 2013 #294

Breaking the Echo Chamber One_Life_To_Give Nov 2013 #295

Same reason I'd like to see broken arms more rare wercal Nov 2013 #56

Because they believe that life begins a conception, but you already knew that lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #64

Because the TeaPublicans use it as a wedge issue to rally the religious right wing to vote for them. RBInMaine Nov 2013 #66

Politics progressoid Nov 2013 #69

I don't wish the trauma of an unplanned pregnancy or having no other choice than abortion on anyone. moriah Nov 2013 #77

Take your own advice Union Scribe Nov 2013 #92

So, you don't think that trying to make women feel bad about abortion is not an attempt to limit it? boston bean Nov 2013 #97

simply stating on a message board what one feels Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #130

Nice. Such a pleasure to have conversations with people who employ personal attacks. boston bean Nov 2013 #144

it is not a.personal attack Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #149

Just the other day I got a request for a phone survey from some wingnut organization Major Nikon Nov 2013 #96

like it or not people are entitled to beachbum bob Nov 2013 #98

No one is forcing one to like abortion. boston bean Nov 2013 #106

The people who are sincerely against abortion FiveGoodMen Nov 2013 #99

To be fair, the debate over exactly when a fetus/infant gains the protection of the law Maedhros Nov 2013 #116

Agreed FiveGoodMen Nov 2013 #117

The logic fails when you realize that every single pregnancy carries risk ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #140

Yes, but these folks don't value the mother's life as much as the new soul's FiveGoodMen Nov 2013 #248

So true ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #275

some opponents are assholes alc Nov 2013 #111

We are talking about people who contend they are pro choice. boston bean Nov 2013 #115

I don't understand your problem with it being "rare" SomethingFishy Nov 2013 #190

Saying it should be rare legitimizes efforts to restrict access to abortion. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #191

because I'm insecure d*mmit! Lithos Nov 2013 #118

*shrug* Deep13 Nov 2013 #120

It's so simple Mira Nov 2013 #121

I had a 3 year old when I had a ectopic at 5 weeks HockeyMom Nov 2013 #127

A term that I despise, which is used by both pro-and anti-choice Ineeda Nov 2013 #122

That one drives me up a wall too. smokey nj Nov 2013 #124

some people honestly consider it murder functioning_cog Nov 2013 #125

Regardless of why a woman has gotten pregnant, it's up to her to determine her own future. cui bono Nov 2013 #131

Male birth control pills are the key IMO. karadax Nov 2013 #134

Because they view it as killing a baby oberliner Nov 2013 #137

Letting a woman run around with an unholstered uterus? Orsino Nov 2013 #141

Because some people really, really, really like to tell other people what to do. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #142

It is none of my concern CFLDem Nov 2013 #145

I want to see it become rare because AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #153

In all honesty a part of me is against abortion, but my Lobo27 Nov 2013 #155

Any child could be the next Einstein or Tesla gollygee Nov 2013 #157

Very true!!! Lobo27 Nov 2013 #161

Actually, everyone is a genius. Glassunion Nov 2013 #246

I've never understood why people care about abortion or same sex marriage. MoonRiver Nov 2013 #160

I've had three woman come to me while making this decision. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #186

For a lot of religious men, it is an issue of them being able to control women in all ways. Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #187

It's not about abortion. It's about naughty ladies not being punished with childbirth. Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2013 #194

Well, in my fantasy world, MH1 Nov 2013 #199

I don't believe the "care" is genuine... fadedrose Nov 2013 #211

Amen.... Little Star Nov 2013 #244

people who like controlling other people care. decent human beings, not so much. dionysus Nov 2013 #225

The same people fighting to stop abortion are against caring for people liberal N proud Nov 2013 #226

Because to those who believe that life begins at conception, abortion is murder. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #229

That is a delightful typo REP Nov 2013 #235

Ouch, thanks. Awful but kind of funny typo. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #238

Same reason They care if I sleep with a man or not. William769 Nov 2013 #230

I always feel that people whom worry about such things Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2013 #233

Honestly, doesnt this also apply when pro-choicers brow-beat other pro-choicers for not using the... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #257

Reading through this thread it is obvious it is not just about a phrase. boston bean Nov 2013 #272

THIS divisive crap again??? Stop implying that some of us kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #245

And your post was?? boston bean Nov 2013 #247

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #256

wtf ??? nt bananas Nov 2013 #263

Jury voted 5-1 to HIDE IT. bananas Nov 2013 #266

How he framed the linked post was offensive. Good hide as far as I'm concerned. boston bean Nov 2013 #268

You "won", what the hell do you care. bananas Nov 2013 #269

huh, I didn't alert, I didn't serve on any jury. boston bean Nov 2013 #273

I'll tell you why. Glassunion Nov 2013 #249

this is a highly nuanced topic Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #252

I can't even read all the replies to this thread - many are disgusting MadrasT Nov 2013 #253

And more immediately after you post. JTFrog Nov 2013 #260

Because some people see the loss of life as a regrettable but feel the woman's autonomy is paramount LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #254

Maybe its everyone's business NoOneMan Nov 2013 #255

Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT. bananas Nov 2013 #262

Ask the Francis fans. DU is not strongly Pro Choice because DU is a promtional center for Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #271

OK, sounds like a wise plan, I'm in. Zorra Nov 2013 #277

When you see a story about someone who had their 16th child, lots of DUers seem to care. n/t hughee99 Nov 2013 #281

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #283

Oh please! hrmjustin Nov 2013 #284

Thank you! ellie Nov 2013 #292