General Discussion

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)

11. Hopelessly conflating past and present events without a tie-in isn't making your point.

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:46 PM

Jul 2014

Gulf of Tonkin - Lie

Downing of Malaysian jet - Really did happen.
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Gulf of Tonkin - US/President Johnson really did want to get into a war with Vietnam

Downing of Malaysian jet - US/President Obama does not want to go to war with Russia (he and 99.999% of Americans want to live, we're funny that way)
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Gulf of Tonkin - No attempt at international verification of events

Downing of Malaysian jet - OSCE investigation team is already on the ground there
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Gulf of Tonkin - Minor country with whom the US had a disagreement in the middle of a civil war. Various major powers took sides.

Downing of Malaysian jet - Conflict totally created by major power Russia to beat up on Ukraine and foment a civil war to annex more of Ukraine's territory.
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etc.

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The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was the fraud that started the Viet Nam War [View all] betterdemsonly Jul 2014 OP

Gulf of Tonkin was a lie. There's really no disputing that the rebels did shoot down geek tragedy Jul 2014 #1

There is no disputing it was shot down betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #3

It is not "very much in dispute." ALL, and I mean ALL, the evidence geek tragedy Jul 2014 #5

What evidence? betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #7

Not my fault you have kept yourself unaware of the facts. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #12

Nobody ever hoaxed a website! betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #17

you are desperately clutching at straws in order to deflect blame geek tragedy Jul 2014 #19

You're projecting betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #21

This isn't like someone dropping a gun and shooting themselves. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #25

That would be a strawman n/t betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #27

still waiting for you to provide one single fact that calls into geek tragedy Jul 2014 #29

Innocent until proven guilty. betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #32

Here is a fact: geek tragedy Jul 2014 #33

The fact that they shot down Ukrainian military aircraft betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #37

Still waiting for your first fact supporting your thesis that the allegations geek tragedy Jul 2014 #38

I never presented such a thesis betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #40

if you say there is no evidence pointing at the rebels, then you are geek tragedy Jul 2014 #46

I don't think websites are good evidence. betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #48

and the fact that the only ones shooting at aircraft in the area in the area geek tragedy Jul 2014 #49

I don't know, but people in warfare do tend to be paranoid. betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #51

do you really claim that the fact that the rebels had shot down multiple planes geek tragedy Jul 2014 #53

No they don't betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #55

none so blind as those who will not see. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #57

+100 !!! (nt) PosterChild Jul 2014 #72

Remember geek.. "America is bad, too".. We can blame this on Obama somehow. It couldn't have Cha Jul 2014 #79

The conspiracy nuts are comparing this to Gulf of Tonkin. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #81

Hate America First.. anything to distract from Putin's Fuckup. nm Cha Jul 2014 #87

And the psychological need to feel special geek tragedy Jul 2014 #88

So You Are Alleging The Plane Was Shot Down By U.S. Agency, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #6

I don't know that it was shot down on purpose at all. betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #8

High-Test Barn-Yard Product, Sir, Pure And Undiluted The Magistrate Jul 2014 #10

Aparently you have a problem with democracy. betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #13

You have as much right to comment on this as Sarah Palin does. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #16

That is really pathetic! betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #23

I have provided all of the facts in this discussion. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #26

No you just arrived at conclusions based on little evidence betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #30

Still waiting for you to provide a single fact that serves as evidence geek tragedy Jul 2014 #31

I don't have to present evidence that anyone other than team russia did it betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #35

There is plenty of evidence they did it. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #36

I don't expect your respect betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #42

Yes, even apologists for a rightwing dictator like Putin geek tragedy Jul 2014 #44

You're either with us, or with the Terrorist! n/t betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #45

hard to be a Democrat and support a rightwing oligarchical fascist geek tragedy Jul 2014 #47

Oh come off it betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #52

'the establishment Party"--who might that be? nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #54

The beltway Democrats and Republicans n/t betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #56

Bahahahaha. You just said all those things and then you said this! Bahahahaha! Squinch Jul 2014 #83

A Common Delusion, Sir: Democracy Does Not Mean Ignorance Is As Good As Knowledge The Magistrate Jul 2014 #64

"I don't know that it was shot down at all" geek tragedy Jul 2014 #15

You are so damn desperate to enforce order betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #20

I see, so someone bumped the radar-guided missile with their geek tragedy Jul 2014 #22

they need to verify who was on the phone magical thyme Jul 2014 #60

Not quite. There were two incidents. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #39

"Just cripple their economy with sanctions" - TBF Jul 2014 #66

No, cripple their economy to deter future geek tragedy Jul 2014 #69

Right. If Ukraine had no resources I might fall for that. nt TBF Jul 2014 #91

All the more reason to deter Russia from geek tragedy Jul 2014 #94

Nor do they belong to the EU/US - TBF Jul 2014 #96

Post your evidence, we have not seen any so far. I note that in the International media sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #85

And By This You Mean What, Sir? The Magistrate Jul 2014 #2

But..but.we can trust our government to never lie or distort anything. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #4

Vietman war was happening long before Tonkin. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #9

That is true. But phony Tonkin ''attacks'' were the excuse LBJ used to send in draftees. Octafish Jul 2014 #34

First attack was real... HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #50

Yup. Seeing how the USS Maddox was in North Vietnam's territorial waters... Octafish Jul 2014 #58

Hopelessly conflating past and present events without a tie-in isn't making your point. stevenleser Jul 2014 #11

Nope. zappaman Jul 2014 #14

Thanks for the history lesson. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #18

Not a very good one. nt Rex Jul 2014 #43

I'm old enough to remember the Tonkin lie gwheezie Jul 2014 #24

thanks for link to PBS video n/t handmade34 Jul 2014 #28

The first war between French-Indochina started in 1946 Rex Jul 2014 #41

a handful of Military Advisers is one thing imthevicar Jul 2014 #61

That lie got us into war, not Vietnam. former9thward Jul 2014 #63

There are quite a few Viet Nam vets alive still TBF Jul 2014 #68

One of my late HS classmates was KIA in VN in 1963 PeoViejo Jul 2014 #80

Remember the Maine!!11! Jackpine Radical Jul 2014 #59

The Explosion Came from the inside. imthevicar Jul 2014 #62

Pearl Harbor a false flag? geek tragedy Jul 2014 #76

Not a false flag. Just avoidable. Jackpine Radical Jul 2014 #84

Don't forget the innocent babies that Iraqi soldiers dumped out of the incubators RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #65

Are you denying the plane was shot down, or trying to deflect geek tragedy Jul 2014 #86

911 Anyone? billhicks76 Jul 2014 #67

Oh by the way, I've cracked the code Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #70

I Don't Watch Videos Here...no time billhicks76 Jul 2014 #73

Please enlighten us on the truth of MH17. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #78

You Misinterpreted billhicks76 Jul 2014 #89

Ok. Peace. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #90

The truth is that Russian separatists shot geek tragedy Jul 2014 #75

Yeah I'm Real Afraid billhicks76 Jul 2014 #93

For every action there is a reaction og1 Jul 2014 #71

Which has nothing to do with the separatists shooting geek tragedy Jul 2014 #74

How about THIS for a reaction? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #77

Really. You should post something about it, with some links betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #82

"Yes we do have neocon dems." Boy, do we ever. Neocon DUers too. Scuba Jul 2014 #92

And we have fascist DUers-- the ones who carry water geek tragedy Jul 2014 #95