General Discussion

ProfessorPlum

(11,461 posts)

46. I see - the victimization of people is wrong if the state is getting rid of "undesirables"

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 12:11 PM

Jul 2014

but maybe less wrong if it is part of a "war".

I suppose that is a distinction that could be made, though I think that Dresden and Nagasaki and Hiroshima were indisputably war crimes, and the US was lucky enough to be the winner and not have to face the consequences of them.

On the other hand, the fate of the people in Gaza seems (to me) to be entirely within the power of the Israeli government, and so that makes them prisoners, or subjects of the Israeli government. And I object, as you do, to the way that government is treating people who are subject to its whims.

Finally, if you aren't getting that one of the major themes of nearly all Holocaust literature and storytelling is "Whoa, that shit was fucked up", then I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, no matter the other themes present in any particular work of art.

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I got the meaning of "Schindler's List" completely wrong! [View all] ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 OP

A brilliant post Professor Plum malaise Jul 2014 #1

Indeed! nt kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #77

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #95

I'd say "nuke them all" is most likely a wrong opinion. nt ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #96

That is funny because I live in an area with lots of Jews and most of my friends are Jewish hollysmom Jul 2014 #129

First you listen sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #134

To be honest I don't go in for conspiracies like that. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #209

What conspiracies? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #212

Post 134 seemed like it was inferring that the same group R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #215

I don't think so. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #216

I've had my say, and will not say any more on it. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #217

OK. Thanks for the advice. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #218

The lesson is that the sanctioned extermination of millions of people is wrong hack89 Jul 2014 #2

So by your measure it is all about the numbers of people? Swede Atlanta Jul 2014 #6

Does this apply to your reasoning? packman Jul 2014 #14

packman, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Are you saying there are not even 10 Palestinians DesertDiamond Jul 2014 #19

I think the poster meant 'justification' instead of 'inspiration.' Voice for Peace Jul 2014 #23

That passage always bothered me packman Jul 2014 #28

Let's face it, Yahweh is an evil, murderous sociopath. Arugula Latte Jul 2014 #74

Bingo. I've been readaing a lot recently about the Chrisitan Gnostics snagglepuss Jul 2014 #111

In cahoots with "Satan" in infinite cruelty. n/t devils chaplain Jul 2014 #121

No, only the people who penned the story. nt kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #184

It makes perfect sense sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #114

Was 911 genocide? nt hack89 Jul 2014 #50

Equivocation BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #86

Genocide does not require ghettos hack89 Jul 2014 #88

genocide is a systemic effort BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #101

So ten deaths can be genocide hack89 Jul 2014 #110

Genocide is a systemic effort BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #115

But there has to be massive loss of life hack89 Jul 2014 #116

There needs to be an effort BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #120

What do you think the number is? Callmecrazy Jul 2014 #161

The Israelis sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #128

"They just want their land " Without taking sides I want to point out that no one has an eternal rhett o rick Jul 2014 #189

It isn't the Palestinians sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #197

People will fight for land! Always have and always will. But no one has an eternal right to rhett o rick Jul 2014 #201

When you posit the argument sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #204

If it is targeted a a certain group of people. It always starts with the idea R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #205

So 911 was genocide hack89 Jul 2014 #206

Nope. It was a terrorist attack. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #207

So the Palestinian population has exploded since 48 hack89 Jul 2014 #208

Nope. That's a false and especially weak conclusion. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #210

So the Palestinian population has not exploded? nt hack89 Jul 2014 #211

I'm not sure why you are making them out to sound like rabbits R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #213

Population explosions and genocide are mutually exclusive hack89 Jul 2014 #214

No ghettoes in Rwanda??? ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #146

Feel free to educate me hack89 Jul 2014 #158

Here is a brief history of Rwanda ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #196

Thanks. I retract my previous comments. nt hack89 Jul 2014 #203

Why do you bring this up in thread after thread? BobbyBoring Jul 2014 #164

They have to be white, primarily Scootaloo Jul 2014 #159

well, you missed the point heaven05 Jul 2014 #43

No I understand the point hack89 Jul 2014 #48

That is anti-Semitic. Jews are not doing anything to the people of The Second Stone Jul 2014 #65

Maybe part of the solution sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #113

They're a Jewish state when it suits them. randome Jul 2014 #190

and not all Iraelis. Many Israelis oppose it. Vattel Jul 2014 #193

But if they're not part of the solution, aren't they part of the problem? randome Jul 2014 #194

You tell me. Vattel Jul 2014 #195

It's not enough to stand idly by while a military junta kills in the name of your religion. randome Jul 2014 #199

I guess I agree that where effective opposition is possible, it should happen. Vattel Jul 2014 #200

Agree about Afghanistan. But Israel isn't threatening to kill their own people. randome Jul 2014 #202

I agree. Vattel Jul 2014 #221

I'm not sure ultra-orthodox sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #130

This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Jul 2014 #78

So why did Israel forcibly remove all Israeli settlers from Gaza nine years ago hack89 Jul 2014 #79

They put them in settlements in Arab Jerusalem - lark Jul 2014 #109

But they withdrew completely from Gaza hack89 Jul 2014 #112

Makes it easier to totally destroy the place. nt kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #185

Those diabolical jews hack89 Jul 2014 #188

Cost benefit analysis. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #117

It was a trust building exercise hack89 Jul 2014 #119

They gave up 140 sq. miles sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #123

Maybe not. Cheviteau Jul 2014 #102

Whilst Gaza is not a death camp it is a concentration camp intaglio Jul 2014 #139

I disagree with your interpretation of "the lesson". IMO the lesson has nothing to do rhett o rick Jul 2014 #191

Bravo Professor. SummerSnow Jul 2014 #3

Cheap theatrics posing as argument. nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #4

Contentless naysaying posing as a response. nt ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #20

B for effort. D for content. nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #90

1 for the money. 2 for the show. nt ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #92

LOL! eom. 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #149

Not to detract from the seriousness of the topic, but Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2014 #168

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service MohRokTah Jul 2014 #106

It wasn't me! ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #124

It was a silly alert. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #125

Care to identify the "theatrics" or are you just bloviating n/t intaglio Jul 2014 #141

wtf JI7 Jul 2014 #5

Is it wrong to defend your citizens against an enemy shooting rockets at them? NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #7

Is it wrong to blow up hospitals and schools in your defense? B Calm Jul 2014 #9

Since you answered a question with a question... NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #10

The answers to both your questions is yes and no LittleBlue Jul 2014 #13

Yes, that's wrong also. Hamas is bad. The Israeli government is bad. DanTex Jul 2014 #15

that most normal people PatrynXX Jul 2014 #39

Wait. There were weapons in the UN school housing refugees of war? morningfog Jul 2014 #70

I was referring to this. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #76

If you provoke sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #137

yes eom noiretextatique Jul 2014 #11

It's wrong to defend your citizens? NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #24

'Defend your citizens'? This is how you defend them: give up some of the fucking land! randome Jul 2014 #29

Give up land to a group dedicated to eradicating you? NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #31

Give up the land they stole. "Anything necessary", the generals say. They don't mean that at all. randome Jul 2014 #34

Agreed - the generals didn't mean "give in to our enemies and run like hell." NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #38

Right. It's all about appearances, isn't it? One mustn't look cowardly. randome Jul 2014 #40

Hamas' goal is to exterminate Israel. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #41

This message was self-deleted by its author sinkingfeeling Jul 2014 #55

Isn't Israel's goal the same thing applied to the Palestinians? randome Jul 2014 #59

I hate war... NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #63

these rockets you speak of... druidity33 Jul 2014 #122

I would want them arrested, and tried in a court of law. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #131

The goal of al-Queda sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #147

And this is my whole problem with the situation. BobbyBoring Jul 2014 #170

This is a fascinating post oberliner Jul 2014 #183

give up the land they stole. Does that apply to the US? onenote Jul 2014 #99

Well, yes. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #133

Hamas does not threaten sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #152

When you took that land from them in the first place? treestar Jul 2014 #103

I think the United Nations had something to do with the creation of Israel. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #105

And since its inception... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2014 #126

Every time Israel has taken over more land... NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #182

Right. So Israel benefits each time one of these "attacks" occurs. GoneFishin Jul 2014 #186

Curious use of quotations around the word attacks. onenote Jul 2014 #219

Quotes, because they happen whether they really occur, as they genuinely do at times, GoneFishin Jul 2014 #223

Those are the equivalent of the tactics that were used to drive the Indians off their territory onenote Jul 2014 #227

I don't think that technology existed. And yes, how indeed? GoneFishin Jul 2014 #229

Yes, it did. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #155

Hamas may theoretically wish to eradicate Israel, but if you look at the actual nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #132

What the Nazis did to Jews sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #140

Yet folks are perfectly content to use what happened 60 years ago onenote Jul 2014 #220

It is you Israel that is eradicating Palestinians malaise Jul 2014 #224

It's not wrong to defend your citizens. progressoid Jul 2014 #30

This. NT. riqster Jul 2014 #53

That wasn't what the poster said, though. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #85

Were we defending our citizens when we used phosphorous bombs to burn Iraqi rhett o rick Jul 2014 #192

well Hamas is firing back at Israel PatrynXX Jul 2014 #35

Not sure who you are sticking up for here, but I say ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #54

Wouldn't that be "20 GO TO 10" in fortran? whopis01 Jul 2014 #107

You are correct! LOL ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #162

Up to a point treestar Jul 2014 #98

Well, you know, Hamas is known for being so reasonable. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #100

It's still overkill treestar Jul 2014 #104

+1000 nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #135

Is it wrong to place people in a concentration camp on the basis of their ethnicity and religion intaglio Jul 2014 #143

You win the internet. MinneapolisMatt Jul 2014 #8

well, the stuff behind "a right to exist" and "never again" only belong to Zionists stupidicus Jul 2014 #12

"who have to earn the right" handmade34 Jul 2014 #16

ain't it though? stupidicus Jul 2014 #18

Jewish holocaust survivor: �Never again� does not justify Gaza slaughter. Divernan Jul 2014 #17

Recommend....well worth the read.. KoKo Jul 2014 #37

Excellent! Octoberfurst Jul 2014 #58

^^This^^ blackspade Jul 2014 #61

Thanks very much for posting TubbersUK Jul 2014 #71

You're welcome, AND Welcome to DU Divernan Jul 2014 #73

excellent post and welcome! druidity33 Jul 2014 #118

WOW, you just educated me too, ProfessorPlum! secondwind Jul 2014 #21

If you haven't already seen it, add Spielberg's "Munich" to your list. maddiemom Jul 2014 #22

that movie was frightening and would certainly make any would be "agents" ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #49

I got the meaning of both 'Jaws' and '1941' wrong also. LanternWaste Jul 2014 #25

LOL ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #51

Actually, the message of Schindler's List JayhawkSD Jul 2014 #26

Of any society alive today Israelis obxhead Jul 2014 #27

I think you're still drawing the wrong message frazzled Jul 2014 #32

I see - the victimization of people is wrong if the state is getting rid of "undesirables" ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #46

No ... just that there are different types and degrees of victimization and ... frazzled Jul 2014 #69

ok . . . well, I don't think I'm really pulling the Nazi card ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #75

Israeli policy has been to systematically starve Palestinians Divernan Jul 2014 #60

It looks like an extermination project to me. A slow one. bloom Jul 2014 #171

Right-wingers are the same everywhere. As long as the right-wing Likud Party is in the majority w4rma Jul 2014 #33

Rounding up and systematically killing? A good argument needs no lies. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #36

well, they've already been rounded up, inside Gaza ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #42

I cut my teeth on libodem Jul 2014 #44

All analogies break down because they are analogies. aikoaiko Jul 2014 #45

well, they are occupied. ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #47

No, you got it right. Somebody else is getting it wrong. Octafish Jul 2014 #52

thank you. ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #82

Well duh, killing white people is wrong. Killing brown people and taking their land Exultant Democracy Jul 2014 #56

Actually, many Palestinians look pretty white Divernan Jul 2014 #64

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #57

that Gandhi was a bright fellow ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #62

I am sure that you know that there are many Jews within Israel and in the US who have CTyankee Jul 2014 #68

I am aware of that - or at least I am aware of the possibility that there must be ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #72

The sad fact also remains that at least IMO Hamas doesn't care too much for the Palestinians CTyankee Jul 2014 #81

Yes. +1000 GliderGuider Jul 2014 #66

I agree with you. closeupready Jul 2014 #67

You have expressed the feelings of many people emsimon33 Jul 2014 #80

yes lululu Jul 2014 #83

no ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #84

I say you don't make up for your suffering by trying to pass it on..... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #87

wow. that's a poignant analogy. ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #91

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #89

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #93

ProfessorPlum I would nominate this for best of DU if I could. Denis 11 Jul 2014 #94

thank you ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #97

Nope, you got it 100% right. lark Jul 2014 #108

I find this thread disturbing BainsBane Jul 2014 #127

Yeah, the OP kind of bothered me too. Thanks for articulating why. n/t nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #136

I think you see it in this thread Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #138

Seriously? BainsBane Jul 2014 #145

You kind of chopped off half my sentence there. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #148

The Nazi concentration camps BainsBane Jul 2014 #174

Oh, and btw, Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #151

Okay, let's review BainsBane Jul 2014 #175

Let's try and clarify, then. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #181

170,000 people have died in Syria in the past 18 months, and frazzled Jul 2014 #172

Then you must think the entire history of Israel has vanished into some non-existent ether. delrem Jul 2014 #150

I don't even know BainsBane Jul 2014 #176

Then you ought to study history. nt delrem Jul 2014 #178

I love when I get that comment BainsBane Jul 2014 #180

Ah, but we have had many articles whosinpower1 Jul 2014 #160

I am well of aware of such charges about Obama BainsBane Jul 2014 #167

i agree, remember the outrage when comparisons are made with Putin and the past JI7 Jul 2014 #163

People seem to want to reduce complex situations BainsBane Jul 2014 #166

+1 octoberlib Jul 2014 #169

Thank you. You summed up my feelings perfectly. It bothers me to come here and see this as jillan Jul 2014 #177

It is, but we have come to expect it. Behind the Aegis Jul 2014 #179

Not sure that's what Spielberg himself meant, though. Ken Burch Jul 2014 #142

It's the hipocrisy Maximum Bob Jul 2014 #144

Thank you for this OP. delrem Jul 2014 #153

thank you ProfessorPlum Jul 2014 #165

The abused become the abusers. ozone_man Jul 2014 #154

We saw many of our guys willing to risk their lives fighting fascism overseas wholeheartedly brewens Jul 2014 #156

thx bibi enid602 Jul 2014 #157

I always thought it was weird that people who were brutalized during Cleita Jul 2014 #173

Thanks for the great OP. K&R GoneFishin Jul 2014 #187

If you are saying the message is that it's wrong for people to be treated as the Nazi's did, rhett o rick Jul 2014 #198

this is an excellent OP, I'm disgusted how it became hijacked.. 2banon Jul 2014 #222

K Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #225

Using the holocaust as a comparison may indeed be inappropriate, but the OP does have a randys1 Jul 2014 #226

Good post Professor. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #228