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Daalalou

(54 posts)
19. Pro-Zimmerman arguments are nonsense
Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:28 PM
Apr 2012

I registered just to be able to respond to Mortarman. OK, point by point:

1) Although the community was gated, residents were approximately 50% minority, including Zimmerman. Relevance?

2) Zimmerman was not on patrol, but headed to the store in the rain in his vehicle. He was carrying, as he was licensed to do. So Zimmerman said. This presumes he was being truthful.

3) Zimmerman call was to a "telecommunications call taker" on the non-emergency line, not a 9-1-1 call. The call taker was still a person in an official capacity. It boggles my mind that Z defenders say he didn't have to listen to the dispatcher, yet insist that Martin should have responded to any questions that Z (a creepy stranger) posed of him.

4) Zimmerman�s observation that Martin appeared to be on drugs and was looking around at houses rather than heading straight home, as he might be expected to do in the rain, was reasonable grounds for suspicion, particularly as there had been a number of recent break-ins in the community. It was dark, it was raining, and Martin was returning to a home he was visiting in a community in which all the units look exactly alike. In addition, he was trying to duck from some guy following him. It's possible he was trying to get his bearings.

5) The point where Zimmerman first observed Martin was near the Clubhouse. OK.

6) The Clubhouse is a 1-2 minute walk from Martin�s father�s girlfriend�s unit, where Martin was staying. The scene where Martin was shot was about half way there. The "Mortarman" comes from a stint as a Forward Observer in the Infantry. It involved a lot of map reading. As an aside, what exactly comprises the "Martin Family?" Probably shorthand so they didn't have to write, "Martin's father's girlfriend".

7) The elapsed time of more than five (5) minutes between Zimmerman�s call and the time a shot was fired is consistent with Martin having doubled back to confront Zimmerman, and is more than 3x what would have been required for Martin to proceed home, even at a leisurely walking pace. Again, the Army. The Night Compass Course involved a lot of distance calculations based on pace and time. If you've looked at the map and can follow Zimmerman's narration, he left his vehicle on Twin Trees and walked east along the sidewalk to Retreat View Circle where, not being able to see Martin, he completed his call and headed back to his vehicle along that same sidewalk, which would have been about a 30 second walk. Martin approached up the long sidewalk that runs between the houses that face on Twin Trees and those, including Brandy Green's , that face on Retreat View Circle. He could have been hiding there, or could have been to Green's townhouse and come back, but probably had enough time to make that walk a number of times. If he had wanted to get away, rather than come back and confront/attack Zimmerman, he had way more than enough time to do so.

What was Zimmerman doing during that 5 minutes? We know what Trayvon was doing: talking on the phone with his girlfriend. Why hadn't Martin reached home? Maybe because he was hiding from the creepy guy following him, or maybe he was lost--see my response to #4. But we know that his call to his girlfriend ended one minute before the shot was fired, and about 30 seconds before the screams began. That's not a lot of time to double back and sneak up on someone and attack them. Not to mention that it would be hard to sneak up on someone if you're talking on the phone.

OTOH, Zimmerman had more than enough time to get back to his SUV, as he claimed he was doing. Why hadn't he arrived back there? Why did the altercation take place in a backyard in the direction of the place Martin was staying, rather than on the street near his vehicle? To me, it sounds more likely that Zimmerman was the one doing the doubling back and attacking -- he's the one who had the time, and the familiarity with the complex, to do so, and the backyard setting contradicts his story.

8) The police have publicly said that a "call taker�s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow," and "we don't need you to do that" hardly seems like an order anyway. Mr. Zimmerman did, however, follow that suggestion, although he had every right to continue surveillance until police arrived.

I don't think Zimmerman followed the suggestion. He claims he did, but why hadn't he arrived back at his car 5 minutes later? And why did he originally agree to meet the police by the mailbox, but then changed his mind and asked the police to call him and he'd give his location? That sounds like he planned to keep tracking Martin down.

9) Martin�s �gangsta� persona, evident from his contemporaneous photographs, Tweets, and other evidence, is consistent with his having confronted and attacked Zimmerman. Without descending into dialect, a very likely challenge might be: "Are you disrespecting me?"

Um, teenage boys have been known to act stupid at times. But Martin also has RECENT photos dressed in a tux for a school prom, dressed in a football uniform, snowboarding, horseback riding, cuddling younger children (including in a pic taken 2 weeks before his death, at his mom's birthday party). He also attended aviation summer programs, and volunteered with younger kids, and was in the process of preparing to take his SATs. That's a heck of a lot of non-gangsta behavior. And he has no record of violence.

Zimmerman, OTOH, has a history in which he assaulted a cop, was engaged in domestic violence, and was fired from a job for violent behavior.

10) Martin, at 6'2" or 6'3", was more than 5" taller than Zimmerman, and in far better physical condition. You can hear Zimmerman panting on the phone call from the mere exhaustion of walking. Martin had recently finished a season of football which, the last time I played, involved a lot of wind sprints.

Zimmerman had lost weight since the 2005 mug shot that was the first media image of him. In the police video, he looks like a pretty buff guy. Moreover, he walks easily, with no appearance of being in any pain, and as more than one person has noted, exits the police vehicle unassisted despite being handcuffed. Martin was taller, yes, but he still weighed less, and given the facts I just described, it's debatable that he was in far better physical condition.

11) Water and grass stains on Zimmerman�s back are consistent with his having been on the bottom on his back during an attack by Martin, which is consistent with the observation of the witness nearest to the incident, the partial police report, and the footage from the surveillance camera at the Sanford police station. In that footage, an officer can be observed wiping his hand on his trousers after touching Zimmerman�s back.

There's enough evidence from witnesses that there was a scuffle between the two, so wetness on his back can be explained by that. That doesn't mean Martin attacked him.

12) The observation by Officer Timothy Smith in the partial police report that �Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head� is consistent with Zimmerman�s claim that he was attacked by Martin, who punched him in the nose and banged his head a number of times on the ground/sidewalk. All the people who say "I can't see it" don't want to see it. Reports by SFD Rescue 38 who responded and gave Zimmerman first aid, will almost certainly confirm this.

They may have fought, Martin may have hit him, Zimmerman may have been on the ground at some point. But his injuries, whatever they were, were never serious and certainly weren't consistent with his head being banged on the sidewalk. Folks familiar with police and EMT procedures have outlined a number of problems with Zimmerman's account: no gloves used by the cops, no bandages, no blood on his clothing, no cervical collar given to him, no X-rays or CAT scans taken to rule out concussions or other serious head injuries, the ease at which he walks not suggestive of being in pain or disoriented.

13) The claim by Martin�s mother that it was he who was yelling for help is not substantiated by any scientific analysis, or comparison with any recording of Martin�s voice. Nor have any of Martin�s family or friends stated whether Martin�s normal tone of voice was high as many have assumed, believing that he was a young boy, or deep, which would be consistent with recent pictures which show him as a grown man. Such recordings are undoubtedly available from service providers on Martin�s recent calls and voice messages to friends, which will be made available during the course of discovery.

The voice analysis completely ruled out Zimmerman--only a 48% match (any two people will match in some respect, and here they were both relatively young males from the same general region of the country). Meanwhile, the experts say that you expect at least better than 60% match, with a better than 90% match to be certain. So they know it wasn't Zimmerman screaming. That leaves one person: Trayvon. I assume that they are trying to get a sample of his voice for comparison.

14) In the partial police report Officer Timothy Smith observed that he personally heard Zimmerman state: �I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.� Those audio "experts" who claim that they have compared those screams to Zimmerman's voice on the earlier call and concluded that they're not the same said nothing about how stress affects voice tone. Sanford police apparently used stress analysis during their questioning of Zimmerman. If that stress affects voice tone, how does having somebody beating the s**t out of you and thinking he's trying to kill you?

And you don't think stress would have the same effect on Martin?

15) It has been reported that the witness who lives nearest the scene, and was outside within 10-20 feet of the two, and observed Martin on top beating Zimmerman, has stated that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

Several witnesses contradict this one.

16) Zimmerman was arrested and taken to the Sanford police headquarters, but released after the Prosecutor�s office determined on the basis of observations by police and statements taken by them that there was no basis for charging Zimmerman.

I don't know the reason the prosecutor came to that decision. I hope that will come out at the trial.

16) Zimmerman�s father has no connection with law enforcement in Florida.

So he says. Since the stories told by Zimmerman's father and brother keep changing, I doubt their truthfulness.


17) �Profiling,� in merely concluding that the characteristics of a person under observation are consistent with those of a class of persons who have been found to have committed certain crimes, is not itself a crime. Profiling is a technique regularly used by law enforcement.

Zimmerman wasn't law enforcement. That's the problem.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

They're probably looking for a plea bargain down to manslaughter Warpy Apr 2012 #1
I'll wait and see what happens at the trial. FarPoint Apr 2012 #2
She did a great job in front of cameras. RandySF Apr 2012 #3
It's not her first. And Wheeler is totally full of shit. TheWraith Apr 2012 #27
The Veteran Prosecutor... FarPoint Apr 2012 #29
The article wasn't written by Marcy Wheeler but by bmaz... Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #32
In Trayvon Martin case, murder charge surprises some legal analysts EFerrari Apr 2012 #40
They must be getting the article and the person in question Rex Apr 2012 #49
Empty is the right word for this. elleng Apr 2012 #4
If it is deficient, then either: Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #5
not the State's Attorney (who originally buried the whole thing) waddirum Apr 2012 #17
True, she's not with the State Attorney's office - she was appointed by Gov Rick Scott - Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #22
Actually, she is a State Attorney pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #28
Wait - stop right there - the State Attorney is hedgehog Apr 2012 #37
Of course not, but does that make any difference? nt Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #55
If the state attorney is elected, then there is the motive for setting Zimmerman loose hedgehog Apr 2012 #69
Why not? Gov Rick Scott is a criminal, AND a Repuke, and Repukes ADORE Zimmerman Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #72
If you had taken the time to read the affidavit ... GeorgeGist Apr 2012 #51
I read the opinion, not the affidavit itself. nt Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #54
I do not believe that she would have filed it without supporting evidence. tabatha Apr 2012 #6
That's usually the way it works, yes. n/t janx Apr 2012 #46
What complete and utter bullshit this post is. Solomon Apr 2012 #7
What you said is exactly what has stood out to me too. I don't get why this is so hard Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #59
The Corey affidavit is very thin on supporting facts Vattel Apr 2012 #8
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #9
Your points have no substantiation whatsoever. tabatha Apr 2012 #11
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #13
It was raining that night - the moisture need not have come from the grass but from the sky. tabatha Apr 2012 #15
"I'm not going to waste my time digging it out for you." pacalo Apr 2012 #16
The police bungled all kinds of things including missing tons of witnesses and coaching witnesses Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #20
How do you know the cries were coming from Martin and not Zimmerman? dkf Apr 2012 #30
Zimmerman's been ruled out Daalalou Apr 2012 #36
Maybe the technology sucks and would rule out Martin too. dkf Apr 2012 #39
The technology has been tested to where they can put a probability on its accuracy Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #41
Test Martin and Zimmerman and its apples to apples. dkf Apr 2012 #61
Of course, if they have Martin's voice avalable. nt Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #65
Wait a minute, you are using reason to say it wasn't Martin screaming, and then... CreekDog Apr 2012 #60
I haven't ruled out either of them. dkf Apr 2012 #62
zimmerman police report brush Apr 2012 #24
#15 Go Vols Apr 2012 #53
DUer Hepburn must have seen what bmaz @ emptywheel saw... pacalo Apr 2012 #10
Isn't that a bit risky on the prosecutors part? BootinUp Apr 2012 #12
It sure seems that way, in a perfect system in which the "good guys" have the best intentions. pacalo Apr 2012 #14
What Corey is saying is Zimmerman had already determined Martin to be guilty Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #18
yea shimonitanegi Apr 2012 #23
Pro-Zimmerman arguments are nonsense Daalalou Apr 2012 #19
Good post and that poster has been banned. uppityperson Apr 2012 #21
Welcome to DU MrScorpio Apr 2012 #25
True, but Emptywheel isn't making a pro-Zimmerman case. gkhouston Apr 2012 #26
Her legal expert got obliterated in the comments by practicing Florida attorneys. msanthrope Apr 2012 #35
Like this one (#35): janx Apr 2012 #50
Thanks for posting this! Great info! nt Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #64
Ah. Well, I'm glad to know the prosecution isn't that disorganized. gkhouston Apr 2012 #56
Regarding this point... In the police video, he looks like a pretty buff guy dkf Apr 2012 #33
Dissent ken_phd Apr 2012 #42
What Cory is suggesting in the affidavit is that Zimmerman had decided Martin was a criminal Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #63
Thank you for joining... OneGrassRoot Apr 2012 #48
Does the affidavit have to detail all the evidence? DCBob Apr 2012 #31
No. Here: janx Apr 2012 #43
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #45
This affidavit says specifically that there is more to come Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #57
Exactly what I thought. DCBob Apr 2012 #66
Wheeler's 'legal expert' got obliterated in the comments by people who actually practice law msanthrope Apr 2012 #34
I suspect the prosecutor didn't want to tip her hand. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #38
People are expecting the prosecutor to list all of the evidence in the affidavit. janx Apr 2012 #44
silly H2O Man Apr 2012 #47
I haven't read many affidavits ... GeorgeGist Apr 2012 #52
They don't have to give all the evedence, only enough for Probable Cause Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #58
The Fine Points Of Law And Medicine Should Usually Be Left To Doctors And Lawyers DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #67
I "Love" All These New Members Pimping George Zimmerman DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #68
Even the National Review is acknowledging probable cause NoGOPZone Apr 2012 #70
Self-defense is an affirmative defense to be pled by the Defendant. Tommy_Carcetti Apr 2012 #71
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