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jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
59. I'm not wearing a uniform
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 11:48 AM
Jan 2015

But in criminal law mens rea isn't a matter of making one victim any more special than another - it's about the state of mind of the actor and the social threat posed by that actor.

If I had to guess, I would suppose that most assaults and murders occur between people who know each other. People kill other people for all sorts of "reasons".

So let me give you two scenarios...

1. Aaron is married to Barbara. Barbara divorces Aaron and runs off with his longtime friend Charlie. Out of jealousy, Aaron plots to kill Charlie and one day he shoots Charlie to death.

2. Alfred is a Nazi. He hates Jews. He goes out looking for a Jew, finds one and shoots him to death.

In terms of maintaining social order, to whom is Aaron a threat? Is his murder of Charlie part of some generalized animus toward a class of people historically threatened with violence?

Aaron is a threat to those with whom he is socially involved. Aaron is no threat to a class of people who encounter Aaron-minded individuals on a regular basis. He wanted to kill a specific person - Charlie. He did it, and it's done with. After killing Charlie he might drive down to the diner, take up the seat next to mine at the counter, order a cup of coffee and is no actual threat to me whatsoever.

Alfred is a bigger social problem. His motivation does not arise from some kind of particularized animus against his victim, but he's out to get any number of unspecified others who have no way of avoiding him or knowing that he's out to get them until it is too late. Additionally, Alfred's mindset is exemplary of a type of generalized social threat which persons of his target class encounter on a regular basis, and who live in fear of such persons.

It's not about the "status of the particular victim", it's about the mindset of the criminal in question, and the wider effect of that mindset on society generally.

Now you could say something like, "But what if the killer hates doctors and is out to get doctors? Doesn't that constitute a wider class of victims than a particularized assault or killing?" While superficially true, it is also the case that there is not a reinforcing organization of "we hate doctors" types who contribute to crimes against doctors, and against which there is a social priority of deterring with particularity. Nor is there any oppressive daily concern in the medical community about such organizations.

In the case of police, the theory seems to be that someone who is willing to go after persons known to be armed for the purpose of maintaining order and safety, is exceptionally dangerous and is going after those who are ostensibly charged with protecting others against dangerous persons in general.

So I think the idea is an attempt to calibrate criminal sentences in accordance with a perceived level of danger posed by the criminal - not some prize based on the status of the victim.

Think about Aaron again. Now, sure, we don't want people with poor impulse control to the point of murderous action running around at large, but he wanted to kill Charlie and he's already done that. So that horse has left the barn. I'm not really any safer with Aaron off the street than I was before. In the case of Alfred, though, there are a lot of people who are safer with him off the street, because his intent is a continuing threat to a class of people who already have the social handicap of having to put up with people like him to varying degrees of expression.

Whether those theories are empirically fruitful is debatable, but it's not as if there isn't some sort of rationale behind them, and it is kind of surprising that it would be some sort of mystery as to why there might be this kind of "socially undesirable aggravating factor" as a consideration in sentencing.

Recommendations

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Hate Speech should be forbidden. [View all] Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 OP
That's a great cartoon BeyondGeography Jan 2015 #1
There should be laws against inciting violence but not against offensive speech. Obviously, pampango Jan 2015 #2
"inciting violence" laws have been used to suppress legitimate political expression Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #4
"So if you think those laws are a good idea, please vote "yes"." No thank you. pampango Jan 2015 #8
There should not be a need for a law at all madokie Jan 2015 #3
So true - and that applies to the individual as well. NightOwwl Jan 2015 #16
Yup madokie Jan 2015 #22
I was really suprised at your response in another thread. NightOwwl Jan 2015 #38
NB that France has laws against "incitement to hatred". Spider Jerusalem Jan 2015 #5
Indeed they do. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #6
So do you want to use the French definition or is it also one you find makes no sense? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #21
It was ruled "not hate speech but legitimate satire" by a court, in case you missed that part (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Jan 2015 #25
I think their law is horrible. But if you would like to use it as a model Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #48
That would be OK, but you would have to change the OP to cite the full French law. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #49
Obviously.... sendero Jan 2015 #7
One man's hate speech is another man's bread and butter (Faux, Limbaugh, Beck, etc.). Vinca Jan 2015 #9
no because hate will defined by those in power dembotoz Jan 2015 #10
I can't answer the poll LWolf Jan 2015 #11
According to Google Translate el_bryanto Jan 2015 #13
Okay. LWolf Jan 2015 #14
OP used one of the mildest one, there are plenty more really gross ones...plenty.... Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #31
You just make up your own definition and vote on it...it is a free association poll...?? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #20
He clarified that if you oppose speech designed to incite violence you should vote yes el_bryanto Jan 2015 #58
People who demand such things are inciting hatred and they should be sanctioned. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #12
Good op and worthy of discussion. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #15
Using ones words to establish a state of mind Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #32
I understand under current law that is the way it is. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #39
Ironic that this is being discussed at Democratic Underground. onehandle Jan 2015 #17
How do they control our free speech? What opinions are not allowed to be expressed at DU? el_bryanto Jan 2015 #19
I suspect he's complaining that his threads about guns are constantly getting locked GGJohn Jan 2015 #57
Link? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #65
It's pinned right at the top of the GD forum. GGJohn Jan 2015 #68
What does freedom of speech have to do with du? NCTraveler Jan 2015 #40
Censorship and hidden posts because of rudeness at DU.....never have I heard of such a thing. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #79
No shit. And some people think that has something to do with freedom of speech. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #80
Hate speech apparently is the most precious form of free speech for some folks. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #81
True. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #82
The difference is, private websites like DU can set and enforce community standards. Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #45
What well organized faction of right-wing trolls are controlling our 'free speech'? GGJohn Jan 2015 #51
You can not find a definition of "hate speech" that makes any sense, so what are you polling? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #18
I'm polling the sentiment expressed here that Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #33
With respect, without a definition of a poorly understood phrase, it is a push poll. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #36
I can't believe this is even an issue Ron Obvious Jan 2015 #23
Actually, I think as it stands now, you DO 'have the right to say' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #30
That's a boundary case... Ron Obvious Jan 2015 #52
Isn't that how it should be? Can't I say what I want to say? prayin4rain Jan 2015 #69
You think that's bad... Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #24
I don't recall if it was comedy central or cartoon network, but Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #28
I think it's cartoon network Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #29
There are laws against hate speech, aren't there? In specific circumstances? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #26
"Hate speech" laws in the USA branford Jan 2015 #54
Thank you for the clarification. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #55
Similar issue to pornography and depictions (real or acted) of extreme violence. goldent Jan 2015 #27
Who is going to define what hate speech is? The government. No thank you dissentient Jan 2015 #34
How many of these same people are FOR "hate crime" legislation? Atman Jan 2015 #35
I have no problem with penalties for criminal acts that Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #37
Be specific. Atman Jan 2015 #41
Sure the laws have to be written correctly. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #42
What is a "hated class of person?" Atman Jan 2015 #46
Do you know the difference between trespassing and burglary jberryhill Jan 2015 #47
So why does the uniform you're wearing have a bearing on your death? Atman Jan 2015 #50
I'm not wearing a uniform jberryhill Jan 2015 #59
Thank you. Atman Jan 2015 #63
"I do understand where you're coming from" jberryhill Jan 2015 #71
At DU? Or generally jberryhill Jan 2015 #43
generally. Sorry thought that was clear. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #44
Oh, okay jberryhill Jan 2015 #61
what? NO! Amishman Jan 2015 #53
Most of the world does not believe in our notion of free speech. Quite the conundrum, isn't it? randome Jan 2015 #56
Who's going to define what is considered hate? mb999 Jan 2015 #60
I voted against laws for hate speech because like the author of this poll see the definition is too jwirr Jan 2015 #62
I don't need protection from words, any words, I need protection from people. bemildred Jan 2015 #64
It should be regulated. Orsino Jan 2015 #66
Well then - good to know we all agree on the same definition brooklynite Jan 2015 #77
Fuck No. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #67
The advocacy I see for 'hate speech laws' on DU seems intended to create anti blasphemy laws Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #70
Are you saying that racism, misogyny, and homophobia should be permitted? YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #72
Of course it should be permitted, while at the same time condemned. GGJohn Jan 2015 #74
Yes absolutely Man from Pickens Jan 2015 #76
It must be permitted LittleBlue Jan 2015 #78
No. While it is disgusting we must remember we have freedom of speech. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #73
Voted 'No' Rob H. Jan 2015 #75
Who needs butter? I've got plenty! Initech Jan 2015 #83
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