General Discussion

alc

(1,151 posts)

12. separation of church and state is one way explain the conflict

Tue Jan 13, 2015, 02:40 PM

Jan 2015

1) I'm a Christian. I wouldn't support the church enforcing the death penalty or support any church leaders who call for Christians to kill people who do XYZ. I would leave the church if leaders did want the church to enforce the death penalty.

2) I'm (also) a member of a society (with a government) that has decided that the death penalty is appropriate in some cases (as punishment and/or deterrent) with a well-defined legal process to protect the accused (e.g. I can't make the decision myself and kill the person I accuse)

My beliefs based on membership in group 1 may make me try to influence laws of group 2 away from the death penalty. But my membership in group 2 makes me accept the laws which that group has decided to enact. I can even support (not just accept) the laws if I believe the laws are the best for society even if they contradict my beliefs from group 1.

(I'm an atheist so the argument doesn't apply to me but I would accept the argument if a Christian made it.)

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So question: how can Christians support the death penalty since the Prince of Peace [View all] closeupready Jan 2015 OP

what other place started about 2 weeks ago? and I agree, should be against uppityperson Jan 2015 #1

You cannot call yourself a christian and expect to be taken seriously if you are pro death penalty. onecaliberal Jan 2015 #2

And yet, that's just what they do - even here on DU. closeupready Jan 2015 #4

Indeed. onecaliberal Jan 2015 #6

There's no objective standard phil89 Jan 2015 #21

You know by their deeds. onecaliberal Jan 2015 #82

Well, I think the objective standard is reasonably easy to define. Maedhros Jan 2015 #83

I completely agree with you. onecaliberal Jan 2015 #112

DU has many many right leaning types...many many randys1 Jan 2015 #34

It seems worse now on issues relating to bigotry against muslims closeupready Jan 2015 #66

Oh really? Here's the first OP I read the morning after the last election on DU: Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #93

I remember that. Self delete. Disgusting.nt bravenak Jan 2015 #111

"You will know them by their fruit" is the quote. (nt) PotatoChip Jan 2015 #70

That is such TOTAL hogwash PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #36

Well, now you are getting into some of those lovely Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #65

To many MANY Christians it is exactly that. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #67

Which is why I left it behind Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #69

Amen, brother. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #71

Irish Catholic, altar boy Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #86

Well, the answer is that they can't Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #3

Didn't christ phil89 Jan 2015 #22

Yeah, I have kind of pointed that out to Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #42

I Thought The Fact That Christ Got Executed wellst0nev0ter Jan 2015 #79

The Jews Sgent Jan 2015 #76

Yes, excellent point Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #84

he also said render unto cesar that which is cesars and if you commit a crime you become cesars belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #5

I don't know about the Cesar arguement but the he accepted the death penalty is the arguement jwirr Jan 2015 #8

How do you know he could have fled (let alone that he existed)? closeupready Jan 2015 #10

he wasnt under arrest and he wasnt being held down therefore he was capable of leaving belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #15

Pretty sure Render unto Caesar refered to money (taxes) Marrah_G Jan 2015 #16

he spoke in parables and yes he used taxes as an example but it could be seen as a metaphor belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #28

Shitty plan. n/t A HERETIC I AM Jan 2015 #37

Perfect symbolic plan under the law, glad he gave the sacrifice and not me uponit7771 Jan 2015 #47

As a motif and a reflection of the ancient "scapegoat" idea... A HERETIC I AM Jan 2015 #51

Would be if the effects weren't seen in my life, opposite of a spiritualist and do understand uponit7771 Jan 2015 #53

Belief in the Jesus narrative.. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2015 #60

Everyone answers to something higher, even their own bodies... "primitive thinking" is ascribed to uponit7771 Jan 2015 #115

Various people have various answers to age old questions Tsiyu Jan 2015 #121

Yes, kind of a stupid plan Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #55

Can it be applied justly and without error? i believe it can and belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #64

I would love to hear how you insure that Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #68

was there any question of jeffery dahmer's guilt, ted bundy's , ted kazinsky's belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #72

Cameroun Todd Willingham Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #78

again the anwer is zero belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #81

Does not only apply to money, basically saying keep church out of state and vice versa ... uponit7771 Jan 2015 #45

If you follow Christian dogma Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #46

Render on to Caesar is a metaphor that can be applied across context of government... uponit7771 Jan 2015 #50

Well, there you run into a bit of a paradox Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #61

Most of them are being told what to think and not reading the book for themselves... uponit7771 Jan 2015 #114

Well, I have read the book myself Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #116

That is a REALLY good metaphor. closeupready Jan 2015 #117

You're welcome Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #119

I've read it with and without the understanding of dispensations and the illumination of the uponit7771 Jan 2015 #118

Well my point was... Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #120

Well I think it just goes to show that all Christians are hypocrites. nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #7

Did you forget the sarcasm tag? Maedhros Jan 2015 #87

I think you are missing the point. el_bryanto Jan 2015 #88

Ah - so the sarcasm tag WAS missing. [n/t] Maedhros Jan 2015 #89

"Thou shalt not kill" has no exceptions AFAIK Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #9

That's not exactly true. It really is "You shall not murder" PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #20

Fascinating! riqster Jan 2015 #32

Textual criticism, and dynamic and formal translations are one of the major reasons I rarely discuss LanternWaste Jan 2015 #54

The Duality of Man FSogol Jan 2015 #11

separation of church and state is one way explain the conflict alc Jan 2015 #12

Poll: Younger Christians less supportive of the death penalty (RNS) pinto Jan 2015 #13

Because... love the sinner, hate the sin. DawgHouse Jan 2015 #14

But that's not in their Bible, not at all. Not even close. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #94

Some people take parts and pieces and try to make it fit their agenda. nt DawgHouse Jan 2015 #95

I used to be fb friends with a rabid christian Sheepshank Jan 2015 #17

I come from a Christian background former9thward Jan 2015 #18

Well then don't expect muslims to be, nor atheists, nor Bhuddists. closeupready Jan 2015 #19

Why in the world would I expect other religions to be pacifists? former9thward Jan 2015 #25

Don't take everything so personally. That comment was general. closeupready Jan 2015 #29

John 8:7 Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #26

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that public authority has the right & duty to. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #30

I used to be a Catholic. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #31

And I am a reformed Lutheran (WELS) PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #33

My wife, after 70 years of being a Catholic is now a Quaker. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #38

You're a Lutheran, and I'm a confirmed Catholic, and you neglected closeupready Jan 2015 #39

No, I am an atheist leaning agnostic. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #40

Okay, thanks - anyway, I posted the Vatican declaration on edit - closeupready Jan 2015 #41

Super. Nah, I will leave it and your rebuttal to my statement there for the world to see. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #43

Your statement still stands: and your interpretation of the doctrine is still incorrect. pnwmom Jan 2015 #105

Once the police have caught someone and have him in custody nichomachus Jan 2015 #57

Agreed. I was quoting text from Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am 100% against DP. Always. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #59

That is the correct text but you are misinterpreting the clear meaning. pnwmom Jan 2015 #106

This would be the same Catholic Church Kelvin Mace Jan 2015 #73

Read what you just wrote. The Church effectively OPPOSES the death penalty, pnwmom Jan 2015 #103

They're not really Christians Man from Pickens Jan 2015 #23

Bollocks. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2015 #48

This is true. treestar Jan 2015 #109

Rather than turning "the other cheek", they turn a blind eye. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #24

I am utterly opposed to the death penalty, and I'm not a Christian. SheilaT Jan 2015 #27

Such people focus on worshipping a magical Christ. riqster Jan 2015 #35

The Catholic Church is fairly against it. Prism Jan 2015 #44

Which Western nations are Christian? closeupready Jan 2015 #52

Most of them, unofficially Prism Jan 2015 #75

For starters, many so-called Christians are not familiar with the New Testament. ladjf Jan 2015 #49

I'd say this belongs in the Religious Forum. 2banon Jan 2015 #56

When you believe in man made fairy tales, anything is possible seveneyes Jan 2015 #58

this is regularly brought up when discussing things like social welfare JI7 Jan 2015 #62

How can Christians support war? KamaAina Jan 2015 #63

folks can justify ANYTHING no news there dembotoz Jan 2015 #74

religion, lol KG Jan 2015 #77

he died for our sins. like a get outta jail free card. i am serious. elehhhhna Jan 2015 #80

Can't, logically, elleng Jan 2015 #85

There is no single hard definition of Christain. The Klu Klux Klann is Christain organization. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #90

Yes - but that's the point you see? el_bryanto Jan 2015 #91

Yes, pointing the finger and mocking is not a valid method of critique of a anything. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #92

Trying to explain how religious people of any religion can maintain the vast hypocrisy required to Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #96

hypocrisy librechik Jan 2015 #97

Yes- that's why only Christians are hypocritical nt. el_bryanto Jan 2015 #98

Yes, that, OR, like going from cave etchings to Van Gogh, elevating to an art form closeupready Jan 2015 #99

establishing a dogma will automatically generate heretics and hypocrisy and sophistry librechik Jan 2015 #113

Many Christians are already living in Christian hell... hunter Jan 2015 #100

I am a Christian and do not support the death penalty. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #101

I stand with ... GeorgeGist Jan 2015 #102

I am a Christian and a student at a liberalhistorian Jan 2015 #104

we don't support the death penalty. quaker bill Jan 2015 #107

Cause Jesus was executed and that turned out OK for him aikoaiko Jan 2015 #108

'thou shalt not kill' no asterisk that i'm aware of. spanone Jan 2015 #110