General Discussion

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)

167. This is an international problem. Learn about outbreaks in the Netherlands and Canada which stream

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 09:49 AM

Feb 2015

out of the anti science protestant sects there.
This OP is incomplete and America-centric.

"In the Netherlands the national vaccination program started in 1957. Despite a high vaccination coverage, in the last two decades there have been epidemics of poliomyelitis (1992-1993), measles (1999-2000), rubella (2004-2005) and mumps (2007-2008)... Almost all patients in these epidemics belonged to the orthodox protestant minority and were unvaccinated because of religious objections."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/11/102

Canada, Mumps 2011:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=65d245df-6bf6-4ac8-8978-89382fc4f040

The role of religious leaders in promoting acceptance of vaccination within a minority group: a qualitative study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3668146/

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

298 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Can you put down your pitchfork long enough to discuss the root causes of the anti-vax problem? [View all] whereisjustice Feb 2015 OP

you left out: they do not want to see there is a problem, till they find a scapegoat bettyellen Feb 2015 #1

and, you must be BRAVE! snooper2 Feb 2015 #199

pitchforks blackcrow Feb 2015 #2

People just want to feel in control because it makes them feel good. TransitJohn Feb 2015 #3

sadly, because of this impulse to believe it is 100% an outside cause, few advocate bettyellen Feb 2015 #223

No, eject them from society. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #4

I agree gopiscrap Feb 2015 #75

If it were about the species we would not have atomic weapons. zeemike Feb 2015 #81

Throw em in Concentration Camps! Hari Seldon Feb 2015 #121

Are you ann--- Feb 2015 #126

It's not a huge step from "eject them from society" to "concentration camps" Fumesucker Feb 2015 #130

Baloney, the Jews thought no such thing treestar Feb 2015 #184

No. Just throw 'em off DU... SidDithers Feb 2015 #222

Really it would be more efficient to line them up and shoot them. Chemisse Feb 2015 #134

yep 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #174

With right wing comments like that it is hard to tell who is more Coo Coo For Cocoa Puffs. GoneFishin Feb 2015 #209

yes it is 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #221

#11 - piss-poor science education. 70% of Americans believe that angels actually exist. Q.E.D. - nt KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #5

I had to check the comments before posting because I knew someone else would have Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #169

Your response would make a fine OP and allow you to elaborate somewhat on its themes. There's KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #183

Haven't read it, but it sounds like it indeed is running along the same lines of thought. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #190

K&R. Dumbing down of the population has succeeded. We can see icecaps and glaciers melting and still Overseas Feb 2015 #268

Thank you, recommended. It is not like all this suspicion is coming from a vacuum dissentient Feb 2015 #6

Bullshit jberryhill Feb 2015 #14

Missing the point dissentient Feb 2015 #16

There is no way to alter their perceptions of reality. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #19

Wow, to me that is beyond extreme dissentient Feb 2015 #21

Since anti-vaxxers are an asymetric political group, you're right about politicans. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #23

So the pro-vaxers want to 'remove those who don't agree with them from society'! Wow. That sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #53

+1000 n/t 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #180

Does Putin allow his comrades to be vaccinated or just segments of society? snooper2 Feb 2015 #201

Are you in the wrong thread or something? My response was to a PRO-VAXER who wants to eliminate sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #236

Putin is Big Pharma, I believe he is proposing elimination of anyone who disagrees with his ways snooper2 Feb 2015 #237

So you agree then with the Pro Vaxer I responded to who proposes the elimination of those who dare sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #239

I think this is what you're grasping for... cui bono Feb 2015 #257

Thank you, and since I've never voiced an opinion about Putin, and don't know this person btw, it sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #292

Pure ignorance on your part. HERVEPA Feb 2015 #208

Ignorance? Regarding what? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #293

totally agree. bbgrunt Feb 2015 #254

Don't let people's anger repel you. Vaccines are extremely important. cui bono Feb 2015 #259

I am repelled. But not about vaccines, I am well informed on the subject, as much as anyone can be. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #281

I am disappointed also. Thanks for putting it so well. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #284

I definitely agree with you on that. cui bono Feb 2015 #286

Love that quote, it is absolutely true. It doesn't bother me at all, as FDR said, 'I welcome their sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #287

If you're joining the anti-vaxxers, you don't give a shit about human lives. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #265

This message was self-deleted by its author rhett o rick Feb 2015 #283

unfortunately 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #175

wow 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #173

You're not the only one. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #294

I feel that way about people who refuse to see the problems with the Dem Party and its leaders, cui bono Feb 2015 #260

Bullshit bullshit jberryhill Feb 2015 #37

It doesn't take a psychic to see that some folks make this connection dissentient Feb 2015 #44

When you look at an issue dispassionately Chemisse Feb 2015 #136

But once people become suspicious Chemisse Feb 2015 #135

The vaccines simply as profit to PhRMA is a ludicrous conclusion Trekologer Feb 2015 #160

Good luck! eom fried eggs Feb 2015 #7

Wow....you only thought you might be digressing by end of Point 8?..... pkdu Feb 2015 #8

I'm not anti-vax, but you'll just alienate anti-vaxers without acknowledging where whereisjustice Feb 2015 #25

Actually considering what anti-vaxxers have to say has made the problem WORSE. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #156

Simply saying that you vaccinate your kids to an anti-vaxer Bettie Feb 2015 #200

Fuck Rand Paul jberryhill Feb 2015 #9

? whereisjustice Feb 2015 #58

Rand Paul was interviewed on CNN rpannier Feb 2015 #116

I wouldn't want to. Liberalynn Feb 2015 #241

America is not a nation with a sweet, benevolent government. There is a lot of distrust. Bonobo Feb 2015 #10

Would you be interested in a recipe for cornflake doused fried chicken? NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #11

Then don't listen to the government. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #15

Yelling "burn the witch" really isn't going to get more people vaccinated, that's for sure whereisjustice Feb 2015 #30

Yes, it will. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #157

Doctors who are ann--- Feb 2015 #127

No. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #12

Precisely jberryhill Feb 2015 #17

Yes> And I do. And I know it worked. Because I am old enough to have whereisjustice Feb 2015 #32

I'll tell you what: Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #213

But you are not thinking of the differential effect - the important part is making sure whereisjustice Feb 2015 #271

Anti-vaxxers at DU should be banned... SidDithers Feb 2015 #13

+1,000,000,000,000 MohRokTah Feb 2015 #18

lol - like someone coming back from Africa, due to Ebola risk? hahahahahahah whereisjustice Feb 2015 #35

The "isolation from society" attitude is downright creepy Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #114

Do you think so...... Historic NY Feb 2015 #153

Perhaps a little context to what my comment was based on would help Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #279

Funny, you know how Ebola didn't spread in the US? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #217

u might be looking a little anti social 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #186

Yep. DU shouldn't be giving a platform for these idiots. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #26

Oh for the good ole days........... leftofcool Feb 2015 #124

Lots of opinions will get you banned... SidDithers Feb 2015 #143

The last time I checked leftofcool Feb 2015 #148

+1000000 J_J_ Feb 2015 #227

Banned people keep coming back.. SidDithers Feb 2015 #274

+1000 n/t 2pooped2pop Feb 2015 #187

Or at least sent to the dungeon treestar Feb 2015 #177

Yup. The dungeon, or the astrology, crystals and moon-bombing group...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #178

So should gunners. Crunchy Frog Feb 2015 #243

Anti-intellectualism is the root cause anti-vaxxers, mixed with more than a modicum of ignorance. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #20

Sorry, you are wrong: dont-call-them-dumb-experts-fighting-anti-vaccine-movement whereisjustice Feb 2015 #267

The only place anyone is going to tell you have blood on your hands for being rational, appears to sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #22

I think I'm supposed to call my Dr. if I experience symptoms of tuberculosis or liver failure... lol whereisjustice Feb 2015 #27

Or if you DIE! Lol. 'Call your doctor if you experience any of the following side effects, strange sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #47

Or erections lasting longer than 4 hours Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #115

I think I must be the only one juvenile enough to find that funny. Chemisse Feb 2015 #137

No, you're not. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #155

Anti-vaxxers must be ejected from society. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #28

Hey, let's put moms in jail for being concerned about what they put in their children's bodies. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #36

I'm so happy the internet didn't exist during the smallpox vaccination campaign. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #39

some regular extremists here are incapable of discussion, they've already called me a killer :) whereisjustice Feb 2015 #50

Just consider the sources when ever that happens, that is what I do. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #64

you are correct G_j Feb 2015 #192

There are NO reasonable concerns about vaccines. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #147

No need to put them in jail. HappyMe Feb 2015 #152

Most are concerned about what can get into their children's bodies in the form of a deadly disease treestar Feb 2015 #188

My response was to the pro-vaxer who advocates eliminating people for daring to ask questions sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #238

No one said eliminate them haikugal Feb 2015 #255

What do you mean eliminating them? treestar Feb 2015 #291

Why am I not surprised at your stance? nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #234

Any other anti-social people you want to get rid of? leftofcool Feb 2015 #125

We already lock up criminals, so other than dangerous anti-vaxxers who are standing in the way of... MohRokTah Feb 2015 #149

Performance art, at it's best. Sheldon Cooper Feb 2015 #225

+1000 Yep, people are bombarded with these ads, literally. dissentient Feb 2015 #29

Translation: Big Pharma mercury sheeple argle bargle. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #33

While I appreciate what you say Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #179

so? treestar Feb 2015 #181

Actually, the root cause was an unbelievably fraudulent study pushed by an idiot NuclearDem Feb 2015 #24

Yes! Wgles Feb 2015 #250

Those are not the root causes of the anti-vax problem. Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #31

yes- I am aware of that, but what you neglect is that most people didn't know whereisjustice Feb 2015 #38

Ethylmercury != methylmercury NuclearDem Feb 2015 #41

it doesn't matter, the damage was done, you either fix it or deal with the whereisjustice Feb 2015 #79

Yes, let's surrender to people's ignorance. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #85

You'd rather stick with technology developed in 1920s that freaks people out? whereisjustice Feb 2015 #108

Dihydrogen monoxide freaks people out too. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #220

Except it wasn't. Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #43

Once the trust is shaken, it's hard to get it back. Chemisse Feb 2015 #138

And just who shook that trust? haikugal Feb 2015 #256

Does it really matter now? Chemisse Feb 2015 #258

I'm seeing that and haikugal Feb 2015 #262

And apparently some people don't know that mercury wasn't in the shot... SidDithers Feb 2015 #168

His study would have never gained traction without a skyrocketing autism rate fried eggs Feb 2015 #40

...or an expanded definition of autism. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #42

I don't know if you're intentionally minimizing it or fried eggs Feb 2015 #60

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #72

Yes, we're done. You have no correct info fried eggs Feb 2015 #94

Or maybe it's organic food! Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #46

I certainly hope the person who put that graphic together Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #182

Good christ, reall? Wifi and cell phones? TransitJohn Feb 2015 #67

Are you serious? Asking questions fried eggs Feb 2015 #93

There is a reason. It's just a matter of finding it. Chemisse Feb 2015 #139

No point in asking questions when you refuse to accept the answers. nt hack89 Feb 2015 #172

Autism rates started going up high when Hyundai started selling cars in the US, 1986. snooper2 Feb 2015 #203

Well, sheep like or just someone who knows what the electromagnetic spectrum is, and various parts TransitJohn Feb 2015 #266

Could also be our understanding of autism is getting better rpannier Feb 2015 #117

This message was self-deleted by its author Alkene Feb 2015 #288

most dangerous part of vaccines is the drive to the doctor's office. let the antis pray away their msongs Feb 2015 #34

50,000+ dead from flu and pneumonia in US/year - and the sick will go to work whereisjustice Feb 2015 #45

and that has nothign to do DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #52

Yes it does, It has everything to do with it. Companies won't vaccinate employees and they force whereisjustice Feb 2015 #55

we are talking about CHILDREN DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #66

Well here's another fact, the measles vaccine I was given as child was not effective as expected whereisjustice Feb 2015 #89

B: public campaigns DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #98

Adults have every right to say no to the flu shot. Chemisse Feb 2015 #140

By far, the majority of people who die from the flu & pneumonia are the elder4ly & already sick. napi21 Feb 2015 #77

Look, you go to work with the flu and see how much you get done, and then when whereisjustice Feb 2015 #80

ok, let's grant some points DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #48

Again - it comes down to trust. If the government is worried, they'll win trust not by yelling witch whereisjustice Feb 2015 #57

do you really think DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #70

Oh wow, I don't think you are helping your cause frazzled Feb 2015 #49

You are preaching to the choir - the problem is, you haven't figured out how to win trust whereisjustice Feb 2015 #54

I think the problem is much more culturally based frazzled Feb 2015 #71

maybe ironic that your sigline says "women should be able to make their own healthcare decisions" nashville_brook Feb 2015 #194

It's ironic that you don't see the difference between frazzled Feb 2015 #245

I'm finding all the vaccine hysteria amusing Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #51

Measles was eradicated in the US fifteen years ago. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #56

whoah slow down there Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #61

There wouldn't have been an outbreak period if people had been getting vaccinated. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #68

That doesn't logically follow Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #73

You're kidding me, right? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #76

Not even slightly Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #78

No, this has been discussed, discussed, and discussed again. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #82

None of that is relevant to my questions Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #88

Wow, you really are gifted at mischaracterization elias7 Feb 2015 #122

It's funny when anti-vaxxers go on and on about scientific evidence... SidDithers Feb 2015 #170

It's even funnier... CanSocDem Feb 2015 #204

Oh, good. More of the woo crowd checking in... SidDithers Feb 2015 #207

You are kidding, right? Jamastiene Feb 2015 #163

You are not actually asking questions. jeff47 Feb 2015 #215

What happened? A fucking measles outbreak at Disneyland... SidDithers Feb 2015 #59

and? Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #62

Probably for a few kids, yes. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2015 #111

The one's who die, will die... rpannier Feb 2015 #118

The possibility of measles returning as an endemic disease in the US is what's at stake bhikkhu Feb 2015 #69

The problem is the Govt. stopped funding public awareness and costs have skyrocketed whereisjustice Feb 2015 #63

As part of reasons number 1 & 2 here is a good NYT article whereisjustice Feb 2015 #65

The ACA REQUIRES all healthcare plans to provide immunizations without a copay. SunSeeker Feb 2015 #87

Mississippi and West Virginia, are the only two States that do not allow religious exemption from Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #166

So money is not the reason, which is my point. nt SunSeeker Feb 2015 #247

Nah. One of this nation's biggest problems is too much discussion and not enough pitchforks. Ykcutnek Feb 2015 #74

Except in the 1960s it was very common to see PSAs on TV and radio whereisjustice Feb 2015 #84

BIG PHARMA DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #83

There is one word for it, IGNORANCE, and while most of the ignorance and thoughtlessness JDPriestly Feb 2015 #86

thank you, and agree, the price of vaccines has tripled in last 15 years, dr offices in tx whereisjustice Feb 2015 #91

Vaccinations for these common diseases JDPriestly Feb 2015 #109

+1!!! whereisjustice Feb 2015 #113

Yes. Trillo Feb 2015 #233

Ignorance and woo. Stop feeding the stupidity on point Feb 2015 #90

the problem is - your response is even worse than their assertions, seriously whereisjustice Feb 2015 #95

I would like to give this post a thousand recs. Voice for Peace Feb 2015 #92

Agree - thanks for your post whereisjustice Feb 2015 #96

The anti-vaccination lunatics are the arrogant ones. SunSeeker Feb 2015 #97

You are not very old, I remember polio and measles, etc - anti-vax is nothing new whereisjustice Feb 2015 #101

Bullshit. It is not about cost. SunSeeker Feb 2015 #106

I agree, this is one of the best threads about the topic I have read on DU so far dissentient Feb 2015 #100

FINALLY!!!!!! DeSwiss Feb 2015 #99

lol and thank you, much better than being called a blood stained killer :) whereisjustice Feb 2015 #105

I think too many here KT2000 Feb 2015 #102

agree - I bet many trashing this thread never got their measles booster which is whereisjustice Feb 2015 #104

Can You RobinA Feb 2015 #165

here is one report whereisjustice Feb 2015 #273

maybe you are refering to antibody titration (titering)? TB test is also common whereisjustice Feb 2015 #275

This thing is Salem witch trials all over again arikara Feb 2015 #103

And don't forget the recent fraud claims connected to Merck's MMR vaccine, complete with whistle-blowers. pnwmom Feb 2015 #107

thanks, there is another irony, between 1957 and 1971 measles vaccine was "less" effective whereisjustice Feb 2015 #110

That's right. Many of the people filled with outrage are under-vaccinated themselves pnwmom Feb 2015 #112

It was a killed virus back then HockeyMom Feb 2015 #142

+1 Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #145

Way too funny. Eko Feb 2015 #119

Look at all that acid in there!!!!!!!! Eko Feb 2015 #120

LOL, I thought the exact same thing with #7. trotsky Feb 2015 #162

To go down you list, one by one: Humanist_Activist Feb 2015 #123

Your post is exactly what brings the pitchforks out kcr Feb 2015 #128

THANK-YOU! Chemisse Feb 2015 #129

Naw, DUers love their pitchforks. leftofcool Feb 2015 #131

We should work with the people who think gays should not be able to get married then. Eko Feb 2015 #158

Brava!!! haikugal Feb 2015 #252

never mind the question, the answer is reddread Feb 2015 #132

You are paying attention. woo me with science Feb 2015 #146

I've noticed that as well. JEB Feb 2015 #224

I think a lot of people already figured that out 'that the pitchfork wielders' true agenda is sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #295

To this list I would add the introduction of a vaccine that might not even be necessary. Chemisse Feb 2015 #133

Had all my mercury fillings removed 11 years ago after a gum reaction to a crown Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #141

The root cause is that Idiocracy is actually a documentary. hobbit709 Feb 2015 #144

I have issues with #8 Major Nikon Feb 2015 #150

I have heard of no anti-vaxer state the points you made. randome Feb 2015 #151

Ladies and gentlemen, I present another sad case of Orrex Feb 2015 #154

I will tell you what. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #159

I Suggested This RobinA Feb 2015 #161

Righteousness has nothing to do with it. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #164

"No reasoning with the righteous" jberryhill Feb 2015 #195

This is an international problem. Learn about outbreaks in the Netherlands and Canada which stream Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #167

17 yrs ago, my son had a reaction to 2 year old, zillion shots. late at night, he went into autistic seabeyond Feb 2015 #171

i have reactions to flu shots nashville_brook Feb 2015 #191

we don't have answers because the research has been politicized. seabeyond Feb 2015 #206

Agreed. I've talked about that intersection - and the need Ms. Toad Feb 2015 #296

I am very sorry that your son had a bad reaction to the vaccinations. KMOD Feb 2015 #193

Not vaccinating is plain stupid treestar Feb 2015 #176

You fail to understand how things have changed, if you don't adjust the campaign whereisjustice Feb 2015 #263

It sickened thousands? treestar Feb 2015 #290

Great op. NCTraveler Feb 2015 #185

thanks, appreciate it. most people can't seem to do more than skim and overreact whereisjustice Feb 2015 #264

I want to change one part of my comment. NCTraveler Feb 2015 #289

Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #189

Try again when you learn how vaccines work. arcane1 Feb 2015 #226

Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #230

Do you have a link that supports your claim that unvaccinated refugees caused the outbreak(s)? cyberswede Feb 2015 #232

I believe Pres Obama AND Hillary were both guilty of the same type of vaccine hysteria... 1bigdude Feb 2015 #196

"We are over-medicated" jberryhill Feb 2015 #197

Never mind that without vaccines, we'd be even more medicated. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #216

Based on admittedly personal and anecdotal experience Bettie Feb 2015 #198

Your long post leaves out something important. MineralMan Feb 2015 #202

This is a good start. LWolf Feb 2015 #205

No, because the root cause is stupidity and fraud. All of your arguments are wrong. jeff47 Feb 2015 #210

^This Act_of_Reparation Feb 2015 #214

^^^^^must read. Barack_America Feb 2015 #269

It's not about trust. Avalux Feb 2015 #211

K&R Oilwellian Feb 2015 #212

Conspiracy whackos and people with too much time on their hands underpants Feb 2015 #218

Horse. Fucking. Shit. we can do it Feb 2015 #219

No. Iggo Feb 2015 #228

Public funding of elections! That would rebuild trust in the longer term. Trillo Feb 2015 #229

When it comes to obnoxiousdrunk Feb 2015 #231

There is only one reason for being in the anti-vax side adieu Feb 2015 #235

Stupidity and self-important privilege? Check. 6000eliot Feb 2015 #240

Wrong. We CAN begin to fix a real problem without fully understanding others. Orsino Feb 2015 #242

Whew! Thank you soooooo much! I wanted to write this but you did it first! DesertDiamond Feb 2015 #244

my kids are vaccinated but I think you have a very good point renate Feb 2015 #246

Every single one of your 10 points is completely irrelevant. Gman Feb 2015 #248

11. Needles ThoughtCriminal Feb 2015 #249

An arbitration? Sure. Tell you what. They leave the pre-pubescent wmd at home, I'll leave the jtuck004 Feb 2015 #251

Funny you should say that. Did you know millions of middle aged people who thought whereisjustice Feb 2015 #272

ROFL. You sent me a video in which a doctor says the anti-vaxxers are wrong, and that people my age jtuck004 Feb 2015 #276

you think I am an anti-vaxer? that's your take away? Christ I can't believe I wasted my time w/ you whereisjustice Feb 2015 #280

You missed it... Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2015 #253

"7. We are exposed to too many chemicals in our daily lives." What does that even mean? Liberal Veteran Feb 2015 #261

Thank you for posting. All good points, also don't forget this year's ineffective flu shot. joanbarnes Feb 2015 #270

Most rational post on the vaccine issue yet. Bravo whereisjustice! Dont call me Shirley Feb 2015 #277

Good job! rwsanders Feb 2015 #278

Sometimes pitchforks are necessary Blecht Feb 2015 #282

Absolutely not; in fact mine is held higher. RiffRandell Feb 2015 #285

I am pleased that there are 90 members of DU, Ms. Toad Feb 2015 #297

Agree, whereisjustice Feb 2015 #298