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On the Road

(20,783 posts)
15. Well, Since You Asked,
Sun May 13, 2012, 05:15 PM
May 2012

at the risk of bringing down the condemnation of the whole board, here is what I believe is the most cogent argument against gay marriage:

Pretty much all societies have had an institution of heterosexual marriage. Some societies have practiced and condoned, or at least not condemned, gay sex. Even in those societies, however, marriage was still an exclusively heterosexual institution.

Using a definition that's been relatively unified across cultures and throughout history, gay people have always had the right to marry. But because they're gay, they may not want to avail themselves of that heterosexual institution.

Introducing same-sex marriage is therefore not a matter of removing discrimination against a particular group. It requires changing the concept and definition of marriage in the law.

As the gay community has pointed out, there are hundreds of ways gay people are disadvantaged by not having their long-term relationships recognized as a marriage, including employer health coverage, survivor benefits, hospital visitation, and inheritance. Those are important issues of equal treatment that really need to be addressed.

The problem with doing this by simply changing the definition of marriage is that marriage is not merely a legal institution. While there is no direct parallel, it is more more like a joint status agreed on by both the law and by organized religion.

A legal marriage is created not only by getting a marriage license, but by a wedding ceremony performed by any recognized religion or denomination, or by the state. Couples cannot simply freelance and claim a legal marriage. With very few exceptions, marriages are recognized by all faiths regardless of whether they were performed by a judge or a priest in another faith. Not even fundamentalists or cultural xenophobes think of a couple as 'living in sin' if their wedding was performed in a courthouse, a mosque, or a Buddhist temple. The legal and religious elements are inextricably intertwined. Changing one can easily be seen as changing the other.

There are various ways of modifying the law to eliminate the inequalities resulting from hetero-only marriage. One is by creating a separate institution of civil unions. While originally hailed by the gay community, a decade later it was being condemned as grossly inadequate, if not a matter of outright bigotry. There is also the option of creating a civil institution of life partnerships that applies to both gay and hetero people and disengages the legal and religious components from each other. It would mean making all marriages civil unions in the eyes of the law and leaving religious ceremonies and the matter of defining marriage to the individual faiths. That would appear to meet most objections of both sides of the issue, but has not really been championed by anyone so far.

The simplest way of addressing the equality and civil rights issues involved is simply expanding the legal definition of marriage to include same-sex unions. However, because the legal and religious elements of the institution are so closely aligned, it is seen by many of its opponents as taking one of the holiest ceremonies of their faith and applying it to something that is condemned both in both the religious sources and the history of the various faiths.

Gay sex has pretty clearly been proscribed throughout the history of Judasim, Christianity, and Islam, not to mention other traditions. Recently modernist portions` of some faiths have begun to drop prohibitions against gay sex, but it comes at the cost of turning on its head the history as well as the founders and the documents of their own traditions.

There are efforts recently to harmonize gay relationships with the various faiths. They are interesting, but none of them come close to showing what they claim to show. Using the analogy that Leviticus prohibits shellfish ignores the entire distinction between ritual and moral law, and between Jewish ceremonial regulations and universal moral principles. Deducing approval from Jesus' silence on same-sex relationships ignores his proscription of adultery, his promotion of celibacy, his brother's extreme asceticism, and the entire culture in which he operated. We don't know if David and Jonathan were gay or whether they had sex, but the story written about their relationship is not presented as sexual in nature and has never been understood that way. We don't know exaclty how the medieval same-sex ceremonies were regarded by the priests who performed them, but if they were condoning a sexual partership, they were departing very significantly from their own faith -- there is a reason these ceremonies were so obscure that the records were only recently brought to light.

A lot of opposition to same-sex marriage has been driven been religious teaching, but it is not only religious -- mainland Chinese people routinely object to gay marriage with no reference to the Judeo-Christian tradition. Indeed, a lot of opposition to gay marriage certainly appears to come from personal bigotry. That is shown by propositions such the NC amendment which written to prevent any means of addressing the legitimate concerns of people in a same-sex partnership. On the other hand, there is (believe it or not) a certain segment of the religious population that is amenable to addressing the civil rights issue on a legal basis. For example, an educated and devout but very conservative man said to me that just because gay people may not have equal rights in the next life doesn't mean they shouldn't have equal rights in this one.

If all opposition to gay marriage is attributed to implacable bigotry, the game is lost in much of the US. In practice, support varies quite a bit by the specific legal proposal and how it is communicated and promoted. The current campaign seems to me to be an unnecessarily in-your-face way of promoting equality, and IMO, it is much less successful than it would have been to pursue a strategy of keeping the whole issue on a civil, secular basis. It is too complex an issue for broad brushes, too delicate to ignore tact, the prospects too uncertain to simply run roughshod over countervailing concerns, and too important to acquiesce in a patchwork of bad state laws. But unless the federal government can overrule the state, it appears that may be the status quo for the next few decades.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

No, Sir: And If they Meant It About 'Preserving Marriage' They Would Be Crusading Against Divorce... The Magistrate May 2012 #1
And adultery. nt laundry_queen May 2012 #29
And many a battle against those -- divorce and adultery -- has been fought and lost. JDPriestly May 2012 #36
Hell, I have a pretty good imagination and I can't even THINK of one. I've certainly ... 11 Bravo May 2012 #2
Of Course. Any person that owns a co. that will have to pony up health care, retirement, etc. WingDinger May 2012 #3
Actually, retirement benefits can go to whomever one designates. GoCubsGo May 2012 #10
Not so with Social Security, which is all the retirement $ most folks will ever see. kestrel91316 May 2012 #16
that's not a "cogent" argument (as the OP asked)...it's an argument that denying civil rights saves CreekDog May 2012 #28
So that lesbian woman at the next desk should pay for Social Security that JDPriestly May 2012 #37
They can't say it, but they try to dance around it... targetpractice May 2012 #4
Nope sakabatou May 2012 #5
No Solly Mack May 2012 #6
Yes thelordofhell May 2012 #7
Well, "Because I don't like it" is a perfectly coherent reason malthaussen May 2012 #8
I've never heard a single rational argument about why marriage equality may be detrimental to ANYONE kestrel91316 May 2012 #17
There is one just upthread. malthaussen May 2012 #20
Most/many employers do not cover family Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #22
No. Starry Messenger May 2012 #9
I never have. Jazzgirl May 2012 #11
Nope Kalidurga May 2012 #12
no d_r May 2012 #13
sure arely staircase May 2012 #14
Well, Since You Asked, On the Road May 2012 #15
Not bad. But you ignore the Common Law. malthaussen May 2012 #19
marriage does not require a wedding in texas arely staircase May 2012 #21
I don't know if it's still the case, but at one time in Texas HillWilliam May 2012 #31
dont know about the two witnesses0 arely staircase May 2012 #47
No marriage requires a wedding obamanut2012 May 2012 #53
First, what state requires a ceremony Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #23
It's not that hard to parse malthaussen May 2012 #25
Then that isn't an argument for equal marriage, IMO. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #33
Poster defines "marriage" as being among members of both sexes malthaussen May 2012 #35
In fact, as I have posted in the past, the word "marriage" has two meanings. JDPriestly May 2012 #38
The religious definition is prior to the civil definition, however. malthaussen May 2012 #39
Yes, the religious one came first, which is why people are confused. JDPriestly May 2012 #56
I was using "prior" in the logical sense... malthaussen May 2012 #57
Never in my lifetime. Rex May 2012 #18
No. All the arguments start from the false premise that homosexuality is an abomination. aikoaiko May 2012 #24
Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment malthaussen May 2012 #26
the need for small tribes arely staircase May 2012 #27
Ha, I hadn't thought of that at all malthaussen May 2012 #30
That is because in primitive societies and earlier ages, society feared underpopulation. JDPriestly May 2012 #40
but all societies everywhere have not so conspired RainDog May 2012 #45
As to your first point malthaussen May 2012 #46
actually, that's not the case RainDog May 2012 #49
Ah, interesting. Dr Boswell would appear to have lucked into a good lode malthaussen May 2012 #51
Oh, and what I also find really interesting RainDog May 2012 #50
Most people haven't read The Source malthaussen May 2012 #52
thanks for the conversation RainDog May 2012 #54
The pleasure was mine, assuredly. malthaussen May 2012 #58
I heard Rush Limbaugh talking about it interfering with his ability to get married every couple of madinmaryland May 2012 #32
yes " I don't want to do ritual you straight people do" said one of my childhood friends, He said it mulsh May 2012 #34
I don't belive the polls, I don't think anyone for the most part, cares if gays get married. crazyjoe May 2012 #41
Then with respect, you live up to your user name malthaussen May 2012 #42
Never have, never will. Initech May 2012 #43
religious belief does not require coherent thought RainDog May 2012 #44
Because it would create more married couples, requiring more married benefits? haele May 2012 #48
You ask the best questions, Don. n/t EFerrari May 2012 #55
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