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In reply to the discussion: Exploding the myth of the feckless, lazy Greeks [View all]girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)86. Sabrina..
These articles which appeared over the last few days have brought me more hope, since at last some very mainstream voices are expressing support for what I have long believed is the only good solution.
Greece Must Exit
by Nouriel Roubini
NEW YORK The Greek euro tragedy is reaching its final act: it is clear that either this year or next, Greece is highly likely to default on its debt and exit the eurozone.
Postponing the exit after the June election with a new government committed to a variant of the same failed policies (recessionary austerity and structural reforms) will not restore growth and competitiveness. Greece is stuck in a vicious cycle of insolvency, lost competitiveness, external deficits, and ever-deepening depression. The only way to stop it is to begin an orderly default and exit, coordinated and financed by the European Central Bank, the European Commission, and the International Monetary Fund (the Troika), that minimizes collateral damage to Greece and the rest of the eurozone.
Greeces recent financing package, overseen by the Troika, gave the country much less debt relief than it needed. But, even with significantly more public-debt relief, Greece could not return to growth without rapidly restoring competitiveness. And, without a return to growth, its debt burden will remain unsustainable. But all of the options that might restore competitiveness require real currency depreciation.
The first option, a sharp weakening of the euro, is unlikely, as Germany is strong and the ECB is not aggressively easing monetary policy. A rapid reduction in unit labor costs, through structural reforms that increased productivity growth in excess of wages, is just as unlikely. It took Germany ten years to restore its competitiveness this way; Greece cannot remain in a depression for a decade. Likewise, a rapid deflation in prices and wages, known as an internal devaluation, would lead to five years of ever-deepening depression.
If none of those three options is feasible, the only path left is to leave the eurozone. A return to a national currency and a sharp depreciation would quickly restore competitiveness and growth.
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-must-exit
by Nouriel Roubini
NEW YORK The Greek euro tragedy is reaching its final act: it is clear that either this year or next, Greece is highly likely to default on its debt and exit the eurozone.
Postponing the exit after the June election with a new government committed to a variant of the same failed policies (recessionary austerity and structural reforms) will not restore growth and competitiveness. Greece is stuck in a vicious cycle of insolvency, lost competitiveness, external deficits, and ever-deepening depression. The only way to stop it is to begin an orderly default and exit, coordinated and financed by the European Central Bank, the European Commission, and the International Monetary Fund (the Troika), that minimizes collateral damage to Greece and the rest of the eurozone.
Greeces recent financing package, overseen by the Troika, gave the country much less debt relief than it needed. But, even with significantly more public-debt relief, Greece could not return to growth without rapidly restoring competitiveness. And, without a return to growth, its debt burden will remain unsustainable. But all of the options that might restore competitiveness require real currency depreciation.
The first option, a sharp weakening of the euro, is unlikely, as Germany is strong and the ECB is not aggressively easing monetary policy. A rapid reduction in unit labor costs, through structural reforms that increased productivity growth in excess of wages, is just as unlikely. It took Germany ten years to restore its competitiveness this way; Greece cannot remain in a depression for a decade. Likewise, a rapid deflation in prices and wages, known as an internal devaluation, would lead to five years of ever-deepening depression.
If none of those three options is feasible, the only path left is to leave the eurozone. A return to a national currency and a sharp depreciation would quickly restore competitiveness and growth.
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-must-exit
And this, from London's conservative mayor:
Europe is driving full-tilt, foot on the pedal, into a brick wall
By Boris Johnson
I see the G8 has a brilliant solution to the problems of the eurozone. President Obama says its time for growth and jobs. Jolly good. Thats the stuff. Let me show you how to create employment the Brussels way.
Come with me through the streets of Athens, not far from Syntagma Square, and your mind will reel with the horrified realisation that history is not a one-way ratchet, that human progress is not guaranteed, and that a proud country can be reduced by years of torture and bullying to a state verging on total political, economic and moral collapse.
You will see businesses boarded up and windows smashed because no one has the money or the energy to fix them, and on almost every wall a riot of graffiti full of poisonous hatred for politicians. You will see people sitting on cardboard, heads down, hands out, or pushing trolleys full of scrap metal.
Not far from the town hall, I saw a man using the pavement as an operating theatre to eviscerate a mattress for its springs. In the eyes of every politician there is a glassy humiliation, a sense that the fate of the nation is no longer in their hands. Even worse than the humiliation is the dread that things will deteriorate further still. Thousands are now being fed by soup kitchens.
Unemployment is rising by the day, and among young people it now stands at a shameful 54 per cent. Yup, folks those are the results of an EU plan to produce growth and jobs. It was called the euro, and it has been a catastrophe for Greece and pretty bad (with one notable exception) for the rest of the continent.
read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/9278862/Europe-is-driving-full-tilt-foot-on-the-pedal-into-a-brick-wall.html
By Boris Johnson
I see the G8 has a brilliant solution to the problems of the eurozone. President Obama says its time for growth and jobs. Jolly good. Thats the stuff. Let me show you how to create employment the Brussels way.
Come with me through the streets of Athens, not far from Syntagma Square, and your mind will reel with the horrified realisation that history is not a one-way ratchet, that human progress is not guaranteed, and that a proud country can be reduced by years of torture and bullying to a state verging on total political, economic and moral collapse.
You will see businesses boarded up and windows smashed because no one has the money or the energy to fix them, and on almost every wall a riot of graffiti full of poisonous hatred for politicians. You will see people sitting on cardboard, heads down, hands out, or pushing trolleys full of scrap metal.
Not far from the town hall, I saw a man using the pavement as an operating theatre to eviscerate a mattress for its springs. In the eyes of every politician there is a glassy humiliation, a sense that the fate of the nation is no longer in their hands. Even worse than the humiliation is the dread that things will deteriorate further still. Thousands are now being fed by soup kitchens.
Unemployment is rising by the day, and among young people it now stands at a shameful 54 per cent. Yup, folks those are the results of an EU plan to produce growth and jobs. It was called the euro, and it has been a catastrophe for Greece and pretty bad (with one notable exception) for the rest of the continent.
read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/9278862/Europe-is-driving-full-tilt-foot-on-the-pedal-into-a-brick-wall.html
People are finally waking up and we are at least closer to a true resolution for Greece. I think the neoliberals are doing their best to spread fear and panic because they know that if the Greeks manage to escape the bankers' death grip and return to growth (or even stability), others will follow.
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I did read it and saw that it was about his mother. I'm convinced that he loves her. n/t
PoliticAverse
May 2012
#8
So on the one hand you have meticulously collected tax/income statistics covering generations
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#12
Ah so greeks live in an authoritarian state where they have no control over their government
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#128
If the politicians ran on a platform of putting up red light cameras
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#137
Out of curiosity: do you deny the fact that the Greeks underpay on their taxes?
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#32
assuming their income tax system is something like ours, slightly progressive with ordinary people
HiPointDem
May 2012
#55
Rich Greeks, yes, just like here. Why, did you buy into the 'blame the working class
sabrina 1
May 2012
#42
of course it's supported by the facts. where the rich get most of the income, they are paying
HiPointDem
May 2012
#56
5% of the people get 50% of the income in the us and pay about 60% of the income taxes.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#124
didn't say it was. but the people with the money are responsible for the majority of income taxes,
HiPointDem
May 2012
#129
yes, i understand *your* confusion. if you acknowledge the obvious you have no argument.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#135
On the contrary, I have been extremely consistent and logical in my debate
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#136
You have provided no evidence whatsoever of anything. I linked Greece's GINI index.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#143
And that would be quite relevent if we were discussing their GINI index.
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#152
Where did the bailout money, forced on the Greeks by the Goldman Sachs contingency
sabrina 1
May 2012
#102
Germany is running a massive trade surplus, this is a big help to their economy.
Zalatix
May 2012
#167
You didn't answer the question I have asked. Why did Ireland need a bailout, why did the
sabrina 1
May 2012
#173
"You need to explain how taking more money out of the Greek private sector through taxation"
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#181
I. Never. Said. Greece. Was. At. Fault. For. The. Global. Economic. Meltdown
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#189
Also the OP *never said the greeks were responsible for global problems*
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#202
Thanks! I've been wondering about this Corporate Media (1%) hit on the Greeks.
Peace Patriot
May 2012
#9
You have hit on what you seem to believe is a point so you're posting it over and over again
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#50
except that there are still fewer jobs in the us than when bush ii took office.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#92
So nothing the greeks did prior to this in any way made them particularly vulnerable to the economic
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#113
Ireland, Spain, Iceland, France, Portugal and the rest? They have no problems?
sabrina 1
May 2012
#111
Please compile a list of nations not affected by the financial collapse
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#112
Yes, dozens and dozens, this situation has been going on for several years, where would
sabrina 1
May 2012
#81
Why did Greece remain mired in depression despite these significant bailout packages?
girl gone mad
May 2012
#82
You're citing companies, when I'm talking about personal income taxes
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#164
Personal anecdotes don't trump the fact that for generations the Greeks have
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#11
Yup. I guess that's what happens when you don't trust the government to take care of you.
Lars77
May 2012
#23
" And you have no source for your claims." Except for you know the source I provided
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#108
Please post the comment number where you provided objective third party proof
4th law of robotics
May 2012
#119
Post #97. Now stop blaming the poor. Because I will always come back and defend them.
Zalatix
May 2012
#121
Before the crisis, the Greek government could hide the problems by cooking the books.
FarCenter
May 2012
#73
Besides a few goats, olive trees, fishing the Agean, and tourists, what do they live on?
FarCenter
May 2012
#36
You seem to be undermining your own argument by giving us an example of tax evasion by the rich.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#63
bullshit. greece's population density is about half that of germany, england, or switzerland.
HiPointDem
May 2012
#58
self-sufficiency is measured by *production*, not by imports. If I import 40% and export 40%, am
HiPointDem
May 2012
#62
As I said, food self-sufficiency is measured by *production* not by imports. Greece is self-
HiPointDem
May 2012
#66
"but it relies heavily on meat and dairy imports" doesn't sound like self sufficiency
FarCenter
May 2012
#68
Thank you for the revised link. The report contains a similar table for food products only,
HiPointDem
May 2012
#80
Exactly, it is so obviously racist bigotry, same as we get here from the far Right whenever
sabrina 1
May 2012
#141
Thank you, that is an excellent article. Naomi Klein described this kind of predatory
sabrina 1
May 2012
#142
Good information; so if they had a working tax system, they'd be in reasonable shape
bhikkhu
May 2012
#104
The stereotype about Greeks and other tropical people being lazy is based on how hot the climate is.
craigmatic
May 2012
#191