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EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)

119. Have you ever travelled to the Middle East?

Thu Nov 26, 2015, 08:06 PM

Nov 2015

It's full of tourists from Western countries that allow themselves to be separated by sex in many instances, because women shouldn't be with men...

If you want to visit these places, you'd have to comply or be jailed or thrown out. And it's the same with lots of countries... morality and culture are very different around the world and a lot of things we think are "right" are seen as backwards or immoral all over the place...

In other words, you think forcing women to wear certain clothes is degrading... other people think that Western women's clothes are degrading. If you believe there's a "right" culture, then you'd probably be willing to disallow others from practicing a "wrong" culture... which is what France and Switzerland are doing... in a way...

These issues are extremely complex and most folks like to pretend they are simple as they can easily dismiss them if they "feel" their answers are correct.

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Switzerland overwhelmingly votes for burqa ban with �6,500 fine for Muslim women who rebel [View all] philosslayer Nov 2015 OP

Europe is not a progressive utopia LittleBlue Nov 2015 #1

Try having women show their elbows in those countries that mandate the coverings. patsimp Nov 2015 #3

Not sure what you're talking about LittleBlue Nov 2015 #12

I think the poster leftynyc Nov 2015 #45

thank you for understanding what i was trying to say. patsimp Nov 2015 #99

That's not the point Alittleliberal Nov 2015 #134

No leftynyc Nov 2015 #139

Well I'm young and full of energy Alittleliberal Nov 2015 #141

I completely understand leftynyc Nov 2015 #144

I don't think all cultures are equal Alittleliberal Nov 2015 #145

All excellent points leftynyc Nov 2015 #149

^^^ spot on ^^^ Yorktown Nov 2015 #50

I think there are some Catholics in all of our countries that jwirr Nov 2015 #177

Chapel veils. ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #190

I knew a bit about it because I often went to services with jwirr Nov 2015 #195

In Russia they are still serious about this- and have a lattice screen at the entrance where they bettyellen Nov 2015 #196

Plus, long unbound hair was considered to be witchcraft, as the witch wasn't "bound" in her magics, Hestia Nov 2015 #203

Yes, most of the customs we women have and hate came jwirr Nov 2015 #208

Bullshit. A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #52

You group two completely diffterent things together. ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #76

How do the vast majority of Europeans dress? A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #84

... cwydro Nov 2015 #87

Because its DU, and here the Pope is cursed out vigorously because he won't allow women to Drahthaardogs Nov 2015 #91

Can you show me a post where a Duer has defended stoning a woman or killing a daughter? ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #102

While the ooster leftynyc Nov 2015 #136

I don't agree with forcing women to wear them. ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #150

I honestly don't think leftynyc Nov 2015 #155

You have given me something to think about. ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #160

That's the nicest thing leftynyc Nov 2015 #163

well put patsimp Nov 2015 #104

You are right. patsimp Nov 2015 #100

So when you go to Saudi Arabia, will you feel the same way...? pangaia Nov 2015 #111

I've lived overseas, OK? A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #123

So people allowing someone to wear a Burqa is completely modifiying their way of life. OK. nt ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #124

My point....------> . A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #128

The thread and your response I replied to is about dress. ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #152

Ya got me. Fair enough. It was hyperbole writ holiday alcohol large. A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #156

I hear what you are saying but you forget that we still have jwirr Nov 2015 #178

Being progressive doesn't include forcing people to wear European dress LittleBlue Nov 2015 #121

Its not religious, its cultural riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #125

if you wanted to wear a full face mask w0nderer Nov 2015 #138

It isn't? Quantess Nov 2015 #129

Good for them. patsimp Nov 2015 #2

Really? smiley Nov 2015 #5

I am sure these types would. Makes me fucking SICK to hear that shit, though randys1 Nov 2015 #28

yes patsimp Nov 2015 #101

yikes smiley Nov 2015 #113

Hate them Muslims, do we? randys1 Nov 2015 #26

Hyperbolic bullshit leftynyc Nov 2015 #46

Thanks - well put. patsimp Nov 2015 #103

...+1 840high Nov 2015 #114

Agreed! Quantess Nov 2015 #167

Randys1, you and I usually agree, but I disagree with you on this one. Squinch Nov 2015 #56

I am sure you are right, I agree. randys1 Nov 2015 #82

Exceedingly well said. hifiguy Nov 2015 #109

well put w0nderer Nov 2015 #143

No problem with a head covering. TexasMommaWithAHat Nov 2015 #97

seems to me (haven't read original text) w0nderer Nov 2015 #146

Yes, I'm fine with the law TexasMommaWithAHat Nov 2015 #171

i wonder how covered muslim women feel about women in a bathing suit patsimp Nov 2015 #105

No. I support women's equality in the public sphere, which cannot be pnwmom Nov 2015 #162

These women should decide for themselves Politicalboi Nov 2015 #35

If I thought for even one second leftynyc Nov 2015 #47

I have come to the conclusion that European Christianity came about..... A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #57

"Frankly, Arab men and those of Arab descent must have really tiny dicks,...." pangaia Nov 2015 #115

Thanks! A HERETIC I AM Nov 2015 #122

So arrest and fine the women! jberryhill Nov 2015 #75

Enable their oppressors leftynyc Nov 2015 #130

This law has no impact on men jberryhill Nov 2015 #135

It's telling them leftynyc Nov 2015 #142

I disagree that this law has no impact on men riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #170

They're not allowed to decide for themselves. Their husband or male leader of their MADem Nov 2015 #51

Ummmm, when I went to Iran dhol82 Nov 2015 #112

More slide into fascism, Patsimp. You probably Hortensis Nov 2015 #43

"You probably haven't thought this through." Squinch Nov 2015 #168

So what if the woman has to wear one because of the men in her family? Marrah_G Nov 2015 #4

There needs to be some community resources to help these women Zing Zing Zingbah Nov 2015 #24

There is no community resource. It's ostracism, death, or go along and get along. MADem Nov 2015 #55

Thank you! get the red out Nov 2015 #63

Yes, but if they are living in Switzerland Zing Zing Zingbah Nov 2015 #65

There are still no resources. Leave your family and culture and put yourself in the hands of MADem Nov 2015 #67

So are you telling me the answer is to just allow this to continue Zing Zing Zingbah Nov 2015 #71

No, the answer is to arrest and fine the women jberryhill Nov 2015 #73

Yeah, and don't forget about the horrible concept of 'honor killing' PatrickforO Nov 2015 #117

I know some very 'on trend' young Persian fellows--they and their MADem Nov 2015 #164

No, the women need to be arrested and fined jberryhill Nov 2015 #74

While I don't necessarily agree with the fine, it would not be the women who are fined. Squinch Nov 2015 #90

Okay... jberryhill Nov 2015 #95

But she has no money. He would have to pay it. No one would have to testify that he made her Squinch Nov 2015 #148

Great point, as usual the Woman is caught between a backward thinking male and his randys1 Nov 2015 #29

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that cultural traditions passiveporcupine Nov 2015 #161

^^THIS^^ Android3.14 Nov 2015 #70

I expect they want such men out of Switzerland. And I can't say I disagree with them. Marr Nov 2015 #77

Ticino is not a terribly liberal BlueMTexpat Nov 2015 #6

Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated. /nt think Nov 2015 #34

I see it is governed by conservative parties and is the only pampango Nov 2015 #54

And many on this very board are down with it. n/t Comrade Grumpy Nov 2015 #173

Sad but true. n/t pampango Nov 2015 #175

Bigots. NCTraveler Nov 2015 #7

The Swiss prize conformity. For Example there's an "approved list" for naming children riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #8

I love Switzerland, but OMG... meaculpa2011 Nov 2015 #14

Our pool at the club did that to when we were younger. yeoman6987 Nov 2015 #27

The title of the article is BlueMTexpat Nov 2015 #44

I realize its only one canton. Thanks for your excellent perspective! nt riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #72

Might check out #6 and ensuing comments. Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #182

Does the Quran say anything specific about burqas? daredtowork Nov 2015 #9

There isn't. It's a cultural garment, not religious riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #10

So not even a religious requirement, just an asshole MALE Requirement randys1 Nov 2015 #30

i knew that.. ditto on the rest. juxtaposed Nov 2015 #32

Historically female face covering was only done by wealthy women as a symbol of snagglepuss Nov 2015 #39

you got it patsimp Nov 2015 #107

No leftynyc Nov 2015 #48

I find it oppressive that the burqa is usually black, while the men wear the lighter colors woodsprite Nov 2015 #11

Actually, for flowing clothes, at worst it doesn't matter and at best black is preferential. redgreenandblue Nov 2015 #79

I like it. FLPanhandle Nov 2015 #13

I'm gonna go with you. cwydro Nov 2015 #25

Really, though, no one has any problem with a head covering. It's these tents that Squinch Nov 2015 #59

+1 get the red out Nov 2015 #64

I agree. cwydro Nov 2015 #88

As one poster has stated twice, pangaia Nov 2015 #118

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2015 #15

I have seen Burqa worn here in San Francisco yuiyoshida Nov 2015 #16

Nobody gives a full body burqa a second look? I have to doubt that KittyWampus Nov 2015 #17

I have walked around the downtown yuiyoshida Nov 2015 #18

I don't think I could tell who Go Vols Nov 2015 #20

same repression, No less I feel juxtaposed Nov 2015 #33

I think it is very, very different. A burqua erases a woman's identity. And that is its purpose. Squinch Nov 2015 #61

Even the simple chador is OBVIOUS as hell. MADem Nov 2015 #53

I frequently see women here in burqas walking their kids to elementary school arcane1 Nov 2015 #176

but they can still wear headscarf and other things ? JI7 Nov 2015 #19

Every woman in Ticino should wear one KamaAina Nov 2015 #21

Yes. +1 Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2015 #22

So all women leftynyc Nov 2015 #49

That made it impossible for the Nazis to identify actual Jews. KamaAina Nov 2015 #96

I agree what the leftynyc Nov 2015 #131

I love it.. :>)))) pangaia Nov 2015 #120

We have a lot of Somali Muslims in my community. Zing Zing Zingbah Nov 2015 #23

There are many women who wear them in an area where I work. The burquas are freaking hazards. Squinch Nov 2015 #62

Actually, the burqa is a practical piece of clothing for a person living in a desert. redgreenandblue Nov 2015 #80

Ain't no way anyone should be crossing a busy Bronx intersection with three or four kids in tow Squinch Nov 2015 #94

And they are ridiculous in high heat and humidity TexasMommaWithAHat Nov 2015 #98

Many desert tribes wear little to nothing - Australia, Africa riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #127

Why aren't the men all wearing them? Marrah_G Nov 2015 #137

Then why don't we see men wearing them? (n/t) Retrograde Nov 2015 #147

This is one of the posts that I don't know what to think. Guess I have to get educated on it. BlueJazz Nov 2015 #31

The garment is cultural, not religious. riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #36

I see your point. (didn't know that) "Its designed to erase women from society" BlueJazz Nov 2015 #37

Historically only wealthy women masked their faces as the masses were snagglepuss Nov 2015 #40

Burqas kcjohn1 Nov 2015 #38

I feel similarly about this as I do about fundamentalist LDS polygamy. David__77 Nov 2015 #41

FUCKING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!! onecent Nov 2015 #42

They should arrest men who force their wives and daughters to wear these oberliner Nov 2015 #58

+1. As long as MEN don't wear the burqa I'm all for banning it. CharlotteVale Nov 2015 #69

Headline is false, Switzerland cast no such vote, one canton did. Also the source is a UPIK Bluenorthwest Nov 2015 #60

The irony EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #66

Good point. Progressives seem to value respecting the rights of others, pampango Nov 2015 #68

WELL SAID!!!! onecent Nov 2015 #86

not if their customs are degrading or abusive, nope. bettyellen Nov 2015 #110

Have you ever travelled to the Middle East? EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #119

I have chosen not to go places where the inequity is too much, and gone to others bettyellen Nov 2015 #165

It's obviously complex EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #166

I don't believe morality is fluid enough that subjugation is okay. bettyellen Nov 2015 #181

But EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #188

just because I don't expect any society to achieve perfection, does no mean that in anyway, you bettyellen Nov 2015 #192

You can of course compare them EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #193

I was specifically discussing social policies that degrade and abuse individual citizens, so nope. bettyellen Nov 2015 #194

I'm not saying that EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #197

And you are defining the subjugation of women as not "meaningful" enough. I disagree. bettyellen Nov 2015 #198

No EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #201

I won't engage in a derail from the topic of oppressive "customs" and feeling forced to tolerate bettyellen Nov 2015 #202

Right EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #204

Never said you support anything- except veering far off topic. Not pretending there are totally good bettyellen Nov 2015 #205

The fact that you are saying that EdwardBernays Nov 2015 #207

Baloney- you have no point because you were responding to what you expected me to say- bettyellen Nov 2015 #210

It should be banned for security reasons too. Waiting For Everyman Nov 2015 #78

Women are as prone as men to accept the tyranny of faith Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #81

This article seems to imply that all 40,000 Muslim women there Cal Carpenter Nov 2015 #83

They are rare in the west Marrah_G Nov 2015 #140

The government already does leftynyc Nov 2015 #151

It was one canton. And anyway, leave the Swiss ALOOOOOONE! WinkyDink Nov 2015 #85

Good. The burqa should be banned in all Western countries. Coventina Nov 2015 #89

Shame on you. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #184

Sorry, not feelin' it. Coventina Nov 2015 #187

There are security concerns. moondust Nov 2015 #92

You can also hide explosives in a backpack or under a coat. Did the Paris attackers wear Burqas? ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #108

True. moondust Nov 2015 #126

Yes, but that can also be done with a hat, bandana, glasses, scarf, makeup, and other various ways. ohnoyoudidnt Nov 2015 #154

A current example moondust Nov 2015 #157

Reminds me of a newspaper comic I'd seen once... Lancero Nov 2015 #93

Most of us have seen it, and it is a practically non-sequitor comparison. Quantess Nov 2015 #133

I would not want this ban in the U.S., and it's probably not good in this canton. Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #183

A full-face covering would be acceptable to you? Quantess Nov 2015 #189

The ban can only help women burdened by second-class citizenry. nt valerief Nov 2015 #106

Support an end to the oppression of women, or support the right of men to force women to wear it. cherokeeprogressive Nov 2015 #116

It's tempting to opt for an easy fix like this ban, but it doesn't help. Here is how France's 5-year tblue37 Nov 2015 #132

The burqa ban worked rather well in France Yorktown Nov 2015 #159

In what sense? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #185

In the sense it makes the type of intimidationin the UK video impossible Yorktown Nov 2015 #186

OMG you are so "racist"!!!!!!! Quantess Nov 2015 #199

Clearly what Muslim women need is for a *different* group of men Recursion Nov 2015 #153

I'm not seeing much of a difference ... NanceGreggs Nov 2015 #158

That is an incredibly naive point of view. Quantess Nov 2015 #200

Would not surprise me if one of our GOP-run states did the same. pampango Nov 2015 #169

Is it technically banned in NYC? Reter Nov 2015 #172

If it is, it is not enforced. There are areas of NYC where they are quite common. Squinch Nov 2015 #209

Good decision, Switzerland. Arugula Latte Nov 2015 #174

Switzerland? Or Ticino? Iggo Nov 2015 #179

How is it intolerant for Swizerland to defend women? Matrosov Nov 2015 #180

I see nothing wrong here. romanic Nov 2015 #191

Islamophobic garbage mwrguy Nov 2015 #206