General Discussion

Whiskeytide

(4,625 posts)

167. But that's two different issues ...

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:26 AM

Jun 2016

... I - and most everyone here - support any democratic process which allows any electorate to make important decisions about their own government.

But the concern of the OP - I think - is that the UK electorate did not fully understand what was being decided. The British political rhetoric and the media coverage emphasized problems - sometimes with great exaggeration - with the UK's membership in the EU, but failed to remind people of the benefits they also enjoyed. It was Trump-esque - "Stop sending money to them! Stop the terrorists from immigrating! Britain first!" There was opposition, obviously, but it was meek, necessarily more nuanced than is handy for sound-bites, and I think they made a lot of assumptions underestimating the anger/fear/resentment of many voters.

So, like the OP, - I can (and do) fully support the people having the right to decide, while still being critical of the lousy political process that delivered the choice to them.

BTW - welcome to DU!

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OH MY GOD let's get several things straight about Brexit [View all] auntpurl Jun 2016 OP

"Thatcherism" was UK's Reaganomics FreakinDJ Jun 2016 #1

Yes - they were best pals and influenced each other a lot LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #252

A sovereign nation may be better able to defeat Reaganism/Thatcherism nt The Far Left Jun 2016 #279

+1, Trump and Putin supported Brexit ... Obama was against it, bout all I need to know to about it.. uponit7771 Jun 2016 #2

Where is the quote Putin weighed in on this at all? davidn3600 Jun 2016 #8

link inside uponit7771 Jun 2016 #15

That's his reaction to it davidn3600 Jun 2016 #44

That was his position from the start, not just his reaction uponit7771 Jun 2016 #49

boris the spider bora13 Jun 2016 #169

I can't disagree with Putin. 840high Jun 2016 #222

You are correct. In fact he implied recently that it was not a good thing newthinking Jun 2016 #226

That isn't what your article says. ronnie624 Jun 2016 #66

Red Herring, my point is he supported it no matter how much he weighed in on it... I think I made uponit7771 Jun 2016 #68

What is clear, is that your assertion is false. n/t ronnie624 Jun 2016 #71

Geez, what is your issue with Putin? I've only read about a gazillion articles regarding Putin's Native Jun 2016 #93

+1 uponit7771 Jun 2016 #124

It comes from the same place that the "Putin said he wants the USSR back" came from newthinking Jun 2016 #228

This is false on its face, His comment wasn't made BECAUSE of the leave vote his thinking was... uponit7771 Jun 2016 #106

Ideally, ronnie624 Jun 2016 #157

Even 3 days ago he was keeping his opinion to himself. OnlinePoker Jun 2016 #114

Yeap, his opinion was he supported it IE his "weak nation" phrase uponit7771 Jun 2016 #119

Obama is for the TPP, Trump is against it. end of line n/t PatrynXX Jun 2016 #110

That's even more of a reason to take a second look at the TPP too, I'm not anti trade I'm anti uponit7771 Jun 2016 #116

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2016 #202

Since TPP written by corportations, I'm sure just fine. George Eliot Jun 2016 #267

So its 100% written by corps or were they allowed to weigh in? I'm not anti corporation either, ... uponit7771 Jun 2016 #268

Perhaps I'm wrong but these are my sources. George Eliot Jun 2016 #281

I'd like hard proof that it was 100% written by corps not conjecture, again... I'm not anti .... uponit7771 Jun 2016 #282

It's a sad commentary on our times, isn't it? forest444 Jun 2016 #129

+1 TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #172

Right GulfCoast66 Jun 2016 #198

I've seen nothing to suggest that Merkel was trying to get other nations to emulate Germany's labor w4rma Jun 2016 #223

So you actually didn't read about this at all. runaway hero Jun 2016 #237

Thank you. An excellent summary. Koinos Jun 2016 #3

As an American anoNY42 Jun 2016 #4

But that's two different issues ... Whiskeytide Jun 2016 #167

I am a Californian The Green Manalishi Jun 2016 #265

Nicely stated! No American progressive or any other educated human should support Brexit. LonePirate Jun 2016 #5

Says you RelativelyJones Jun 2016 #33

There is very little that is progressive BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #72

It would seem ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #89

Too true. BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #91

+1, OP worthy uponit7771 Jun 2016 #120

Yup wryter2000 Jun 2016 #180

Really? RelativelyJones Jun 2016 #131

LOL - buh-bye! eom BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #142

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "McKinseyeqse (sic)"? n/t xocet Jun 2016 #168

Bob & Doug? bigbrother05 Jun 2016 #192

Start with the trade unions' position on how the EU gives workers protection: muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #190

Then you don't know or understand Britain PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #275

Imposing views is all well and fine. Igel Jun 2016 #65

Good point except English haven't had an indigenous population since the 300's. haele Jun 2016 #112

But they have formed a unique cukture elljay Jun 2016 #161

Again, the problem is that there is not really an "English Culture" any more than the "US" culture. haele Jun 2016 #210

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2016 #244

Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I saw the breakdown of the Brexit vote. haele Jun 2016 #246

Thank you for your time in helping us to libdem4life Jun 2016 #261

Well, the people SHOULD have a right to vote on it, whether we like the outcome or not 7962 Jun 2016 #165

For folks disillusioned with Global Capitalism's un-democratic domination, Brexit is hitting back nikto Jun 2016 #262

More related material. proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #271

Thanks! nikto Jun 2016 #272

This is worth learning about. I appreciate your hefty compilation of material, thank you! (nt) proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #273

Excellent summary! Kelvin Mace Jun 2016 #6

LOL!! truebrit71 Jun 2016 #209

Sing it, sister! Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #7

that's the sad part NewJeffCT Jun 2016 #37

Yup. And immigrants. n/t Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #40

If it would only be 52% that would speak highly of them as humans The Green Manalishi Jun 2016 #280

Great post auntpurl! JustAnotherGen Jun 2016 #9

I can't believe some of what I'm reading here. greatauntoftriplets Jun 2016 #10

A big, fat K&R! CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2016 #11

PM Cameron fucked a pig. Really? Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #12

I never called anyone ignorant, and I never said they were supporting Trump. auntpurl Jun 2016 #31

Perhaps you should re-read your post! Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #88

He is correct for all I have seen and read. Jim Beard Jun 2016 #269

Trump supports Brexit. Those who support Brexit side with Trump Logic 101! leftofcool Jun 2016 #83

No..that is an informal fallacy. Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #90

Siding with Trump =/= Trump supporter. Dr Hobbitstein Jun 2016 #218

Thank you for this op La Lioness Priyanka Jun 2016 #13

Thank you. DUers cheering this crap on are perplexing,to sufrommich Jun 2016 #14

I'm trying to think of the number of fucks Americans really care about this snooper2 Jun 2016 #16

Sure, sure. Dow's down by 500, I'm sure it'll be fine. auntpurl Jun 2016 #22

As of now it's down 366. nt cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #41

And was up substantially yesterday on the assumption that Remain would triumph FBaggins Jun 2016 #69

One would think the British Isles are being towed to the middle of The Pond and readied for sinking. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #174

Enough people here seemingly care enough about it... Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #30

Two Words, snoooper2: Unintended Consequences Native Jun 2016 #98

Yep. ExPat daughter and British husband have cancelled plans vanlassie Jun 2016 #173

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #17

Great points! texstad79 Jun 2016 #18

72.2% voter turnout. That's very high. No UK General Election has had such high turnout since Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #42

Nice analysis. You're right, of course. No one is better off because of Brexit. PatrickforO Jun 2016 #19

But many perceive that they will be better off. Igel Jun 2016 #76

+1. Thanks for stating what should be obvious. KPN Jun 2016 #148

I so agree with that. TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #176

Thank you for the clarification. nt fleabiscuit Jun 2016 #20

Did you know the Labour party was Eurosceptic party kcjohn1 Jun 2016 #21

Agreed but there is Identity to consider flamingdem Jun 2016 #23

Just like here wryter2000 Jun 2016 #24

It's not just about well informed Craig234 Jun 2016 #39

The differences between being misinformed and ignorant sometimes seem subtle but nolabels Jun 2016 #147

true or maybe they really are willing treestar Jun 2016 #150

Excellent summary of key aspects of Brexit -- and future is grim ... some speculation cloudythescribbler Jun 2016 #25

Re, your #3, it would be awesome if we had an opposition party to speak of. auntpurl Jun 2016 #47

Well then, why don't you have an effective Labour Party? KPN Jun 2016 #175

Probably exactly because of the kinds of arguments you're making in your post. auntpurl Jun 2016 #178

I'm not sure I see how the left is eating its own ... KPN Jun 2016 #186

In the short term NewJeffCT Jun 2016 #50

Alas, it's hard to picture voters who are likely to vote for Trump paying SheilaT Jun 2016 #73

NeoLiberalism is promising human unity by screwing the workers everywhere equally. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2016 #26

There are more workers then screwers but workers will never be strong enough fragmented uponit7771 Jun 2016 #51

Um yeah....fragmented working class is not a good thing Armstead Jun 2016 #77

K&R! Because I feel you auntpurl, loud and clear. apnu Jun 2016 #27

Amen frazzled Jun 2016 #28

I agree with every word you've posted. The number of sufrommich Jun 2016 #35

+1, some folk aren't as progressive as they think they are... humility is a good thing +1 uponit7771 Jun 2016 #52

As I wrote earlier ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #99

SO true... that's about what surrounds the nihilist... themselves uponit7771 Jun 2016 #101

Great post. nt auntpurl Jun 2016 #140

+1 Dr Hobbitstein Jun 2016 #216

So agree with all you said. I am tired of the angry populism too. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #278

Thank you for your explanation lovemydog Jun 2016 #29

Trump laid a big fat turd by going to Scotland and crowing about the results. yellowcanine Jun 2016 #32

Classic example of an ignoramus. SheilaT Jun 2016 #75

Amazing. auntpurl Jun 2016 #138

Just to add re point #1 TubbersUK Jun 2016 #34

A spat between two Eton schoolboys has just cost the UK 10% of its value overnight nt auntpurl Jun 2016 #57

Absolutely n/t TubbersUK Jun 2016 #62

could be worse. A bunch of squabbling cousins caused World War I philosslayer Jun 2016 #255

Great post at clarifying the issues. Craig234 Jun 2016 #36

This is an outstanding post! Thank you very much! NurseJackie Jun 2016 #38

wow that graphic treestar Jun 2016 #43

Excellent summary! Mandos the Judge Jun 2016 #45

Yes TubbersUK Jun 2016 #53

Cornwall voted to Leave and now wants to make sure their EU subsidies will be provided auntpurl Jun 2016 #55

That's right up there with SheilaT Jun 2016 #78

That's hilarious. Meldread Jun 2016 #81

EU should pull these first, unfortinaly these pulls wont happen for another two years uponit7771 Jun 2016 #107

Oh brother... calimary Jun 2016 #155

Yeah, no, I'm sure it's fine. auntpurl Jun 2016 #158

Let them eat Sovereignty! The_Editor Jun 2016 #183

Complete and utter morons. Odin2005 Jun 2016 #220

As you say, it is particularly sad when BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #80

Reccing with the force of a thousand atom smashers. forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #46

Comprehensive, point by point exposition of this disastrous referendum result. Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #48

You are absolutely right on OBrien Jun 2016 #54

Thank you whatthehey Jun 2016 #56

Great post. auntpurl Jun 2016 #145

Thank you. DetlefK Jun 2016 #58

If there's anything humans are good at, it's cutting off their nose to spite their face. AtheistCrusader Jun 2016 #59

Thank you! betsuni Jun 2016 #60

Beautifully done! It's sad, of course, but you've really explained this perfectly Bucky Jun 2016 #61

K&R Solly Mack Jun 2016 #63

Good OP. Thanks. yardwork Jun 2016 #64

this was my basic impression-- thanks for writing it up nicely! Fast Walker 52 Jun 2016 #67

Thank you, auntpurl! BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #70

But he EU began as a trading union TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #121

For real information about the EU, try its own BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #137

I think there's a good chance that TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #149

We do concur on that BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #153

Yes. TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #170

Excellent post! herding cats Jun 2016 #74

Thanks. I am tried of seeing BREXIT hailed as a win for progressives. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #79

I know TubbersUK Jun 2016 #86

K & R n/t TubbersUK Jun 2016 #82

Thank you for this information. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #84

Trump is happy about the vote. That's all I need to know. n/t TonyPDX Jun 2016 #85

He's happy because he thinks the weaker pound means The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #123

+100000000 I am horrified at the pro-Brexit crowd here. Meldread Jun 2016 #87

So glad you decided not to take a break from DU after all, auntpurl - people need to be educated. Native Jun 2016 #92

There's always spin in the aftermath of an unexpected vote result - FBaggins Jun 2016 #94

Great post! Cali_Democrat Jun 2016 #95

outstanding post - I may be over-generalizing here but NoMoreRepugs Jun 2016 #96

THE best explanation of it all that I've seen yet -- thank you! Hope you don't mind if I ancianita Jun 2016 #97

Quote away. auntpurl Jun 2016 #102

Preach it sister! stevenleser Jun 2016 #100

Good job-- opposition was entirely emotional... TreasonousBastard Jun 2016 #103

I have a question: The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #104

Yes, it is possible. auntpurl Jun 2016 #113

Thanks! It's good to know there might be a way out. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #122

Maybe. auntpurl Jun 2016 #128

It's vanishingly unlikely to happen, Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #133

Thank you for that clarification. auntpurl Jun 2016 #151

I think I was among the hordes that hit Google HARD in the last 48 hours! Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #154

Thank you for this thread.(eom) CanSocDem Jun 2016 #136

Damned if you do, dawned if you don't... ymetca Jun 2016 #195

simply, Parliament. Ironing Man Jun 2016 #146

The fringe or far left rarely attacks the right, instead they attack the left. nt BootinUp Jun 2016 #105

+1 uponit7771 Jun 2016 #109

That's where their bread is buttered. joshcryer Jun 2016 #230

If I'm Pro Environment now I'm right wing?? PatrynXX Jun 2016 #108

The average Leave voter has literally never heard of the TPP. auntpurl Jun 2016 #118

I believe you. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #126

I don't think anyone thinks exit will be good for the environment muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #197

Pro-environment voters supported Remaining in EU by a huge margin. yardwork Jun 2016 #242

Kick! JohnnyRingo Jun 2016 #111

There is a certain DU contingent for whom charges of "neoliberalism" are the knee-jerk response... Nitram Jun 2016 #115

the OP author admits they don't know what neoliberalism means in this context nashville_brook Jun 2016 #260

Thank you for this! liberalmuse Jun 2016 #117

I just have to say ITER Energy ---------------what happens to Britain in this partership turbinetree Jun 2016 #125

Conservatives fuck up the economy and safety net with austerity and neoliberal market policies killbotfactory Jun 2016 #127

Yes, it's a real head scratcher. auntpurl Jun 2016 #130

Do you have anything in place that will nullify this since the framers of this Loki Jun 2016 #135

See the subthread above with the Credit Suisse infographic auntpurl Jun 2016 #152

Its what the fuck they do Cosmocat Jun 2016 #194

K&R ismnotwasm Jun 2016 #132

Most awesome rant ever! radical noodle Jun 2016 #134

Well said underpants Jun 2016 #139

K&R BumRushDaShow Jun 2016 #141

Outstanding summary. This needs to be pushed in the mass media. DrBulldog Jun 2016 #143

Don't bring facts and math into this! nt msanthrope Jun 2016 #144

10. The people feel disconnected from wealth and knowledge. They want something to blame. Festivito Jun 2016 #156

We'll see what will come soon. auntpurl Jun 2016 #159

Wasn't the Brexit vote that exactly? KPN Jun 2016 #191

Yes. My point. auntpurl Jun 2016 #193

Ah, yes, my bad. KPN Jun 2016 #200

We don't, but should. eom Festivito Jun 2016 #207

Yup. We here in the USA are heading down the same path. KPN Jun 2016 #177

Exactly. eom Festivito Jun 2016 #208

Thanks for this. Great graphic, too - really makes it clear. nt cyberswede Jun 2016 #160

Excellent post, excellent analysis, excellent information. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #162

thank you for that excellent summary. will be handy when I have to explain this to niyad Jun 2016 #163

OUTSTANDING! NastyRiffraff Jun 2016 #164

Thank you for this post, auntpurl. brer cat Jun 2016 #166

Thank you Rupert Murdoch, you have almost completely Jim Beard Jun 2016 #171

K & R - because this thread deserves max visibility n/t TubbersUK Jun 2016 #179

We took all of our money out of the stock market. liberalnarb Jun 2016 #181

You are NOT in tune with my reality. fasttense Jun 2016 #182

Thank you! KPN Jun 2016 #189

"But not all of us disagree with the fascists!" joshcryer Jun 2016 #231

After watching the world markets drop like a rock I finally had a stiff drink and went to bed Hekate Jun 2016 #184

thank you RazBerryBeret Jun 2016 #185

Great post! dsharp88 Jun 2016 #187

Big kick! mcar Jun 2016 #188

Sounds to me like just more neoliberal thinking. The stuff that has gotten us KPN Jun 2016 #196

Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #199

Disagree with point three - at least some socialist thinkers on the left favored leaving hueymahl Jun 2016 #201

AUNTPURL FOR PM !!!!! GusBob Jun 2016 #203

I'm not even allowed to vote. auntpurl Jun 2016 #204

Very nice OP lillypaddle Jun 2016 #205

Absolutely spot on. truebrit71 Jun 2016 #206

You can't disappear "neoliberalism" under the label "conservative". arendt Jun 2016 #211

...ok. auntpurl Jun 2016 #212

Meaning what? Agree? Don't give a shit? What? n/t arendt Jun 2016 #213

Some can't accept the word "liberal" being associated with anything bad. They just Skeeter Barnes Jun 2016 #227

This fight was pretty much Tory-on-Tory. Corbyn was "remain". But it really was about neoliberalism. arendt Jun 2016 #221

Calling everything neoliberalism is scare mongering. joshcryer Jun 2016 #234

Neoliberal skellingtons under your bed! NuclearDem Jun 2016 #238

You must be joking. This is an ignorant, juvenille comment. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #239

mighty pretty words auntpurl saidsimplesimon Jun 2016 #214

"May you live in interesting times" - Chinese curse auntpurl Jun 2016 #215

71% of "leave" voters hate the internet??? Odin2005 Jun 2016 #217

No. You have not read it clearly. You misunderstand the presentation. Read it again. nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #283

Google reported that searches for "what is the EU" spiked AFTER the vote nadine_mn Jun 2016 #219

Neo-liberalism is right wing BlindTiresias Jun 2016 #224

Yes and the EU neoliberals.. sendero Jun 2016 #233

you left out: exploitation of cheap labor, and eradicate unions YOHABLO Jun 2016 #277

Ireland lakercub Jun 2016 #225

No, you are absolutely not reading too much into it. auntpurl Jun 2016 #229

A total disaster anigbrowl Jun 2016 #250

This has got to be so upsetting for you .... etherealtruth Jun 2016 #232

Posts like this make me fall in love in DU rocktivity Jun 2016 #235

Aunt Purl, thanks for the most informative post! Raster Jun 2016 #236

Great rant, but you really should learn what neo-liberalism is, since it is a major cause Rex Jun 2016 #240

I would trust Auntpurl's economic opinions far more than yours... anigbrowl Jun 2016 #249

So you didn't read her OP where she says she doesn't know what it is? Rex Jun 2016 #258

The referendum is non-binding. roamer65 Jun 2016 #241

If he ignored it, his party would throw him out, and elect a leader as PM who will exit the EU muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #245

I understand the parliamentary system. roamer65 Jun 2016 #251

Then he never would have risked the referendum in the first place muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #253

Agree Totally colsohlibgal Jun 2016 #243

Excellent OP! Spazito Jun 2016 #247

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2016 #248

Good riddance to Morgan Stanley, I wish we could get rid of them swhisper1 Jun 2016 #254

Reports are the UK is going to be offered "associate member" status in the EU. roamer65 Jun 2016 #256

Could you point me towards the reports please? n/t TubbersUK Jun 2016 #276

Excellent post malaise Jun 2016 #257

Thanks for the break down nt MrScorpio Jun 2016 #259

The “Black Mirror” episode that imagined David Cameron’s dalliance with a pig Chico Man Jun 2016 #263

Excellent write up of the situation. Stand and Fight Jun 2016 #264

Media coups are becoming a norm around the world. Brazil the best example. L. Coyote Jun 2016 #266

well hill2016 Jun 2016 #270

Thanks for this thread PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #274