General Discussion

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)

156. belief =/= knowledge

Mon Jul 4, 2016, 05:06 PM

Jul 2016

See the difference? Again, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle, not an operating precept in determining truth.

As something of a default, I choose to believe the victim in such cases, until such time as I have knowledge* of the person's actual guilt or innocence. The legal system has, quite rightly, a different default position...because it has to. Presumption of innocence is a better way to run a legal system. There is no reason whatsoever an informal discussion about such an incident needs to adhere to that default.

* Or as close as one can come to certainty of the truth-state of a synthetic proposition...but I don't think getting into philosophical minutiae is useful here (happy to do so...it's what I do, basically, but it's usually useless pedantry in an informal discussion like this).

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20+ girls molested in Cologne-style attacks at Swedish rock fest [View all] BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 OP

I have a feeling that things like this fueled much of the Brexit vote. /nt Marr Jul 2016 #1

Agree. 840high Jul 2016 #2

+1 Ex Lurker Jul 2016 #3

More like pedophobia. BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 #4

Pedophobia is the fear of children...or habitual bigotry against children. Chan790 Jul 2016 #15

Thanks, I was saying it in jest. However, the correct term could be "Pedophilephobic"? BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 #29

The weird you're probably looking for FBaggins Jul 2016 #69

pedophobia is a real and serious condition mythology Jul 2016 #130

These things certainly don't help. Especially the frequency in which they are happening. BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 #49

I agree completely. The least we should expect from immigrants or refugees Nay Jul 2016 #81

I don't think so. The talk was about jobs and resources for immigrants from the EU muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #83

I decided a while ago that the "all cultures are equal and we should quietly respect them" thing XemaSab Jul 2016 #5

I'm with you - it's not OK 840high Jul 2016 #8

Including in the US, Germany, Italy, etc. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #30

"where abuse of women and children is totally accepted." cherokeeprogressive Jul 2016 #39

A woman is beaten by her male spouse or partner In the U.S. EVERY NINE KingCharlemagne Jul 2016 #113

"totally accepted". So what laws we DO have on the books have been repealed? cherokeeprogressive Jul 2016 #116

I call out bullshit where I see it XemaSab Jul 2016 #40

In the US and other western countries men are prosecuted for molesting females. pnwmom Jul 2016 #47

ding ding ding ericson00 Jul 2016 #54

What percentage of women in the US never report rapes? guillaumeb Jul 2016 #164

If a woman doesn't report a rape leftynyc Jul 2016 #165

Rape is a horror that occurs in every country in the world guillaumeb Jul 2016 #167

Women are not prosecuted for being raped in every country in the world. pnwmom Jul 2016 #168

But when womens' accusations are not given credibility, guillaumeb Jul 2016 #169

"not supportive" is not equivalent to "publicly whipped and thrown into prison." n/t pnwmom Jul 2016 #172

If you wish to ignore leftynyc Jul 2016 #170

One of these days you may learn of this thing called "percentages" snooper2 Jul 2016 #171

Wow.."British Police Go To HELL " bdwker Jul 2016 #173

The US is unique in the world with multiculturalism. joshcryer Jul 2016 #35

Unique in what respect? Demanding more assimilation than, say, Canada? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #85

It was probably by design. joshcryer Jul 2016 #92

Women and minority rights are objectively better in the US than in many countries Democat Jul 2016 #96

Better than 'many', but I wouldn't say better than Canada muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #101

Canada is almost 90% white mythology Jul 2016 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Jul 2016 #102

The US (and Canada) also didn't open the door wide open to every "Tony Montana" Sen. Walter Sobchak Jul 2016 #106

I have definite issues with my own culture bhikkhu Jul 2016 #41

EXACTLY! XemaSab Jul 2016 #43

Well, exactly. I have issues with immigrants from certain cultures because we Nay Jul 2016 #82

+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2016 #46

Ditto. cwydro Jul 2016 #64

Agreed. Not all cultures are equal. They're just not. Captain Stern Jul 2016 #176

Refugees should be expelled Beakybird Jul 2016 #6

If you said those words on the open street here in say, Stureplan, and people heard you AntiBank Jul 2016 #13

Sweden was the jewel of Europe. bdwker Jul 2016 #14

It's a totally different dynamic here due the unified stance of all the political parties in the AntiBank Jul 2016 #31

Thank you for a great intelligent educational post. bdwker Jul 2016 #34

We are not at the point of no return yet. I have hope. But major structural changes need to happen. AntiBank Jul 2016 #36

There are so many hate groups in the US that they (given enough space) cancel each other out nolabels Jul 2016 #63

Tess Asplund...........this is how how face down the fuckers AntiBank Jul 2016 #65

Bravado and a visceral malaise have been common place in our L.A. metropolis since Richard M. Nixon nolabels Jul 2016 #67

I was born in Huntington Memorial, Pasadena, parents had just moved to Altadena AntiBank Jul 2016 #72

I popped out of mom at Downey Community. nolabels Jul 2016 #84

Sorry to say . . . MousePlayingDaffodil Jul 2016 #19

It is a philosophical question Yupster Jul 2016 #90

Coming to a nation near you. BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 #50

Already there... bdwker Jul 2016 #152

I don't get it. How do they react when they see stories like this? smirkymonkey Jul 2016 #68

You just don't want to know who did this. bdwker Jul 2016 #7

We do know. 840high Jul 2016 #9

It's like a game. bdwker Jul 2016 #10

I doubt it. PC police will get you. 840high Jul 2016 #16

True bdwker Jul 2016 #22

I can say it! Violet_Crumble Jul 2016 #57

That answer is the correct one -- Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2016 #151

There doesn't seem to be. The mainstream wants to ignore facts MariaThinks Jul 2016 #60

Just blame all "Abrahamic" religions EL34x4 Jul 2016 #70

this has happened here in Stockholm in 2014-15, in January 2016 there was a huge scandal becuase the AntiBank Jul 2016 #11

Thanks. 840high Jul 2016 #17

Don't they see that by covering up and ignoring it plays into the smirkymonkey Jul 2016 #71

There has been an accusation treestar Jul 2016 #12

Donald Trump is accused of 840high Jul 2016 #18

that's an accusation too treestar Jul 2016 #23

There have been twenty accusations. Why do you present that as 'an accusation'? Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #20

so what's the number of accusations that makes people guilty? treestar Jul 2016 #25

So you are allowed to conjecture that over 20 women and girls are lying out of agenda about Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #26

I did not do any such thing treestar Jul 2016 #88

Nice point. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #32

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #62

You really doubt understand the concept, do you? FBaggins Jul 2016 #66

you believe it because you want to believe it treestar Jul 2016 #87

You just accused 20+ Swedish young ladies of lying about sexual assault FBaggins Jul 2016 #104

No I did not. treestar Jul 2016 #107

You absolutely did FBaggins Jul 2016 #109

Donald Trump has never been convicted of being a jerk Democat Jul 2016 #97

Being a jerk is not a crime treestar Jul 2016 #98

I choose to believe the victims. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #142

Feminism means every male accused of sexual assault has to be guilty? treestar Jul 2016 #144

Nice strawman. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #146

You said you believe every accuser treestar Jul 2016 #155

belief =/= knowledge Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #156

The girls must not have been wearing their "Don't Molest Me" bracelets. EL34x4 Jul 2016 #21

I'm sure that will stop it. 840high Jul 2016 #27

WTF? BlueNoMatterWho Jul 2016 #33

Välkommen till Sverige AntiBank Jul 2016 #37

I wonder if the victims are blamed if they are not wearing Ilsa Jul 2016 #79

Swedish Feminists Thread Needle Between Sexism and Racism in Migrant Controversy AntiBank Jul 2016 #80

That was my first reaction Yupster Jul 2016 #91

it's "tafsa inte" btw on the bracelets AntiBank Jul 2016 #38

Do the bracelets hold extra rounds of ammo or something? Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #157

“unaccompanied youth” from the Middle East EL34x4 Jul 2016 #24

So sad. 840high Jul 2016 #28

Sweden needs to get it's shit together and help it's people, mostly their women romanic Jul 2016 #42

Agreed Calculating Jul 2016 #153

Not buying it. MohRokTah Jul 2016 #44

This! mwrguy Jul 2016 #45

bullshit. it happened. it was even worse here in Stockholm in 2014-15 AntiBank Jul 2016 #52

it happened. get over it AntiBank Jul 2016 #51

Aftonbladet is left-mainstream newspaper Quantess Jul 2016 #74

I think you misread. I did say it was centre left. AntiBank Jul 2016 #75

My mistake, I meant to reply to someone else. Quantess Jul 2016 #76

lol, is all good I am on mobil too AntiBank Jul 2016 #77

The article is in Swedish treestar Jul 2016 #108

I live in Sweden and I read the papers myself. Quantess Jul 2016 #110

Well we don't have those links treestar Jul 2016 #111

No freedom of speech. bdwker Jul 2016 #112

Officially we do have freedom of the press, Quantess Jul 2016 #117

We should ignore sex crimes? Democat Jul 2016 #59

There was a young muslim girl in Ethiopia who was raped. She brought it up. The village MariaThinks Jul 2016 #61

that's not what the poster said treestar Jul 2016 #89

Some on DU will minimize or deny the truth Democat Jul 2016 #95

Questioning the source can be treestar Jul 2016 #99

If it were only RT reporting this, fine. Quantess Jul 2016 #103

Interesting so the accusation of US soldiers in Germany treestar Jul 2016 #105

Not buying it? oberliner Jul 2016 #78

Quelle surprise. n/t demmiblue Jul 2016 #86

K&R smirkymonkey Jul 2016 #48

more Swedish links, just to quash people wrongly saying this is some RT agitprop AntiBank Jul 2016 #53

this is why we cannot afford either the approach of ericson00 Jul 2016 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author ericson00 Jul 2016 #56

On DU it's okay to blame victims and deny sex crimes Democat Jul 2016 #58

It sickens me, this attitude. smirkymonkey Jul 2016 #73

Yep. :( trotsky Jul 2016 #178

'He grabbed me, then touched my genitals. Girls were crying everywhere' EL34x4 Jul 2016 #93

Oh geez bdwker Jul 2016 #94

Boys will be boys, eh? EL34x4 Jul 2016 #100

Sounds like a description of your average American University frathouse on KingCharlemagne Jul 2016 #119

Actually, 20+ 12-18 year old girls sexually assaulted EL34x4 Jul 2016 #124

Touched a nerve, did I? - nt KingCharlemagne Jul 2016 #126

You got called on your leftynyc Jul 2016 #166

I know, right?! n/t demmiblue Jul 2016 #129

The Daily Mail is a Fascist rag. Odin2005 Jul 2016 #134

I am sure the 20+ girls who were assaulted will be relieved to learn this. EL34x4 Jul 2016 #159

These Muslim young men, if they are, should be considered representative of all Muslims pampango Jul 2016 #114

I hope they are not representative of all Muslims. bdwker Jul 2016 #115

I think I can help out. At least speaking for me. I am NOT pushing the Muslim angle at all. AntiBank Jul 2016 #121

Sorry for not putting the sarcasm tag. I thought the head banging on the wall pampango Jul 2016 #123

What the hell is the matter with guys? Muslim, Christian, whatever, guys cause a lot of trouble! nolabear Jul 2016 #118

You got that right. bdwker Jul 2016 #120

Importing millions of horny men from a culture that doesn't respect women was a terrible idea (nt) ansible Jul 2016 #122

As if American culture was that much better on that front! YoungDemCA Jul 2016 #125

we confined our sexual predation to indigenous and slave women. So KingCharlemagne Jul 2016 #127

Jesus no shit ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #131

Key term: "was." Lizzie Poppet Jul 2016 #143

Hmmmm. seabeyond Jul 2016 #148

Well Calculating Jul 2016 #174

a shitload better actually... snooper2 Jul 2016 #177

This message was self-deleted by its author EL34x4 Jul 2016 #128

Here is the issue, as I read this argument. We have a large immigration from ME in our community. seabeyond Jul 2016 #133

It may also be related to the screening process used by the United States Democat Jul 2016 #135

Excellent point ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #137

The difference with the ME immigration between the US and what's going on in Europe is vetting. romanic Jul 2016 #158

The immigration in our city is not long past. It is recent, too. Especially Afghanistan, Iraq and seabeyond Jul 2016 #160

Funny, when a white Western person commits a crime only the individual is blamed... Odin2005 Jul 2016 #136

Tunnel vision much ? bdwker Jul 2016 #138

No, just pointing out the casual prejudice that comes out every time... Odin2005 Jul 2016 #139

Funny, when a Black working class American votes republican, only the individual is blamed... FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #141

There is nothing saying "all Muslims are at fault" oberliner Jul 2016 #150

Who said anything like "all muslims"? Quantess Jul 2016 #161

Who is blaming all Muslims? But when a large group of men is attacking pnwmom Jul 2016 #162

The elephant in the room keeps getting bigger and bigger. FixTheProblem Jul 2016 #140

The writing is on the wall Calculating Jul 2016 #154

Look at all the excuses in this thread. Marr Jul 2016 #145

It's just incredible how so-called "progressives" cant bring themselves to criticize this davidn3600 Jul 2016 #147

This thread has been one of the most enlightening -- Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2016 #149

Yeah, wtf. nt killbotfactory Jul 2016 #163

They said they are "youth" but I wonder how many TexasBushwhacker Jul 2016 #175