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EX500rider

(12,586 posts)
19. Here:
Sat Aug 6, 2016, 02:53 PM
Aug 2016

Operation Downfall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties

Casualty predictions varied widely, but were extremely high. Depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians would have resisted the invasion, estimates ran up into the millions for Allied casualties.

The Japanese had organized the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps, which included all healthy men aged 15 to 60 and women 17 to 40 for a total of 28 million people, for combat support and, later, combat jobs. Weapons, training and uniforms were generally lacking: some men were armed with nothing better than muzzle-loading muskets, longbows, or bamboo spears; nevertheless, they were expected to make do with what they had. One mobilized high school girl, Yukiko Kasai, found herself issued an awl and told, "Even killing one American soldier will do. ... You must aim for the abdomen."

By the time of surrender, the Japanese had 916,828 military personnel either in position or in various stages of deployment on Kyushu alone. The total strength of the Japanese military in the Home Islands amounted to 4,335,500, of whom 2,372,700 were in the Army and 1,962,800 in the Navy.

In April 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff formally adopted a planning paper giving a range of possible casualties based on experience in both Europe and the Pacific. Given a troop list of 766,700 men and a 90-day campaign, the US Sixth Army could be expected to suffer between 514,072 casualties (including 134,556 dead and missing) under the "Pacific Experience" (1.95 dead and missing and 7.45 total casualties/1,000 men/day) and 149,046 casualties (including 28,981 dead and missing) under the "European Experience" (0.42 dead and missing and 2.16 total casualties/1,000 men/day). This assessment included neither casualties suffered after the 90-day mark (US planners envisioned switching to the tactical defensive by D+120[80]), nor personnel losses at sea from Japanese air attacks. In order to sustain the campaign on Kyushu, planners estimated a replacement stream of 100,000 men per month would be necessary.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

In evaluating these estimates, especially those based on projected Japanese troop strength (such as General MacArthur's), it is important to consider what was known about the state of Japanese defenses at the time, as well as the actual condition of those defenses (MacArthur's staff believed Japanese manpower on Kyushu to be roughly 300,000, more than 300 percent below the actual total)


Casual dismissal of the japanese casualties? No, I prefer in a choice of 150,000 dead to several MILLION the 1st figure.

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At the time the world was happy the war was over yeoman6987 Aug 2016 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #2
How about the unnecessary horror and atrocities the fucking Japanese committed in the Philippines? CBGLuthier Aug 2016 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #8
Would it have veen better if they died with conventional bombs? Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #80
Guilted? Wrong war. We were shoved into WWII by the attack on Pearl Harbor Warpy Aug 2016 #34
Bahh, the fire bombing of Tokyo was a war crime too. CBGLuthier Aug 2016 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #6
There were also prominent figures inside and outside the military who said it was necessary Major Nikon Aug 2016 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #14
Your point is still speculation Major Nikon Aug 2016 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #33
You are going even farther down the road of speculation Major Nikon Aug 2016 #57
The same Halsey that made this quote? SwankyXomb Aug 2016 #69
Neither was a war crime Major Nikon Aug 2016 #15
Thank you for pointing that out. tonyt53 Aug 2016 #58
2 scenarios: EX500rider Aug 2016 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #7
They had not surrendered at the time of the bombing so Nimitz is incorrect. EX500rider Aug 2016 #20
Yes they showed how much they wanted to surrender in the previous battle of Okinawa... EX500rider Aug 2016 #28
There are hard numbers and facts to go with that speculation. sofa king Aug 2016 #83
where are you getting the figures for scenario a? niyad Aug 2016 #10
Here: EX500rider Aug 2016 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #35
Actually, no, not pure speculation... EX500rider Aug 2016 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #49
"comparing trained and supplied troops to untrained, poorly armed civilians aged 14 to 100...". EX500rider Aug 2016 #53
Any war where the line between civilians and combatants is blurred is going to be horrific XemaSab Aug 2016 #75
7 million civilians died in WWI, a war ginned up to try out new ways to kill people REP Aug 2016 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #11
When I see posts made on Armistice Day decrying the civilian deaths of WWI REP Aug 2016 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #36
Holy shit. What a STUNNING display of ignorance about the civilian victims of WWI REP Aug 2016 #68
One can argue sarisataka Aug 2016 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #17
"desperately searching for a way to surrender with honor' EX500rider Aug 2016 #21
They had nothing to lose Major Nikon Aug 2016 #31
Nuremberg trials started months after the Japanese surrendered. Nt hack89 Aug 2016 #40
The process started years before Germany surrendered Major Nikon Aug 2016 #67
So it was reasonable to assume they would not surrender hack89 Aug 2016 #73
Which some of them certainly had coming. EX500rider Aug 2016 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #37
And many of those same figure sarisataka Aug 2016 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #38
So several million Japanese starving to death during a blockade is somehow better? EX500rider Aug 2016 #50
+1,000 malaise Aug 2016 #16
Truman is a hero for dropping the bomb and ending that horrible war. tritsofme Aug 2016 #22
Truman was the GREATEST American HERO of the 20th Century because he used the bomb!!! MohRokTah Aug 2016 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #41
I ignore extremist propaganda. eom MohRokTah Aug 2016 #70
He won't see this REP Aug 2016 #72
Your reply speaks for many of us. Ilsa Aug 2016 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #39
Your slurs are utterly irrelevant to me and the millions of Americans who admire such a great man. tritsofme Aug 2016 #47
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #52
He made a decision to not kill many more US & Japanese with a invasion.. EX500rider Aug 2016 #55
Ah, it's one of the DU High Holy Days. Dreamer Tatum Aug 2016 #23
"DU High Holy Days" Ilsa Aug 2016 #30
Oh very well put Hekate Aug 2016 #65
Seems more subdued and late this year. roamer65 Aug 2016 #84
OFFS!!!! MohRokTah Aug 2016 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #42
200,000 "comfort women" are so easy to overlook Hekate Aug 2016 #66
"callous" - Adjective MohRokTah Aug 2016 #71
Haha! Oh DU! Never change! N/T actslikeacarrot Aug 2016 #32
The military came very close to overthrowing Hirohito when he decided to surrender. geek tragedy Aug 2016 #43
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #44
it rebuts the claim that Japan would have meekly surrendered absent geek tragedy Aug 2016 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #51
"No, there was no ticking bomb." EX500rider Aug 2016 #59
Cool new weapon? XemaSab Aug 2016 #76
You cannot examine something like Hiroshima isolated from the context of the years of war which Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #54
yep you nailed it nt steve2470 Aug 2016 #78
How many Japanese civilians do you think would have died during an Allied invasion? tonyt53 Aug 2016 #56
The Rape of Nanking (sic) and the Bataan Death March were also war crimes. Hekate Aug 2016 #60
Unfortunately the Japanese brought that on themselves Duckhunter935 Aug 2016 #61
This will be unpopular Motley13 Aug 2016 #62
We should have surrendered to the Axis powers. Dr. Strange Aug 2016 #63
200,000 "comfort women" are so easy to forget Hekate Aug 2016 #64
Ah the annual poutrage Paralympics whatthehey Aug 2016 #74
Conventional bombing was killing at least as many people if not more VMA131Marine Aug 2016 #77
you need to read what the Emperor of Japan had to say.... steve2470 Aug 2016 #79
This again? I guess it's that time of year. Captain Stern Aug 2016 #81
I understand your point. I've been to Japan 15 times, & visited peace park several times. CaptainTruth Aug 2016 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Aug 2016 #85
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