General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,664 posts)

15. It is up to each Muslim woman - lesbian or not.

Sat Dec 17, 2016, 02:38 PM

Dec 2016

I don't happen to know any Muslim lesbians (my gay Muslim friends are all male) - so I can't speak to the choices of any individual lesbian Muslim to remain veiled or not. But whatever they choose is just that - their choice.

If you truly believe - as you say you do - that you have no right to get between them and their God, you will respect their right to choose what is right for them. Stop putting the word choice in air quotes, implying you don't believe them. Stop analyzing any specific woman's choice through your non-Muslim eyes and finding it inconsistent or wanting. (Now - if she tells you she is dressing as she is because she is forced to, that is a different matter. My comments here are addressed to the statement you say you respect - that the choice belongs to the woman and her God, but toward which your commentary is anything but respectful.)

Go to an interfaith gathering. Spend some time getting to know one or more Muslim women well enough that you can have a respectful conversation with them about their beliefs (one in which you start out leaving your disrespectful binary beliefs at the door) and ask them why they draw the line where they do.

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I was thinking about the issues surrounding the hijab yesterday [View all] Coventina Dec 2016 OP

There are no veils between God and oppressed worshippers in Islam. MADem Dec 2016 #1

Do you feel the way Tibetan Buddhist monks dress is bogus and unreasonably ostentatious? pangaia Dec 2016 #26

I think all religious garb is attention-seeking. MADem Dec 2016 #37

Fashion and grooming in general are sexist and unhealthy HoneyBadger Dec 2016 #2

Someone hasn't seen any recent issues of Men's Health, I take it? MADem Dec 2016 #60

I find it equally insulting to men, implying... TreasonousBastard Dec 2016 #3

I think the hijab is sexist and oppressive. However, I would fight to the death for Squinch Dec 2016 #4

Agree completely that anything that hides the identity of a person should be outlawed. Coventina Dec 2016 #5

Slavery is inherently not a choice. Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #8

Yea...nope. Squinch Dec 2016 #17

Yes. cwydro Dec 2016 #9

You seem to be intentionally twisting what the Muslim women I have spoken to Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #6

I am not intentionally twisting anything. This is what I was told by a Muslim woman who said she Coventina Dec 2016 #7

But you're imposing your narrow restrictions on the broad principle she stated. Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #10

Why is it that these supposed "choices" are suspiciously all male centered? Coventina Dec 2016 #12

It is up to each Muslim woman - lesbian or not. Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #15

I put "choice" in scare quotes because I happen to NOT believe it truly is a choice. Coventina Dec 2016 #16

Then why pretend to support individual choice Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #18

What is a real live Muslim woman. romanic Dec 2016 #19

I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to whether someone should wear a hijab. Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #22

Having followed your discussion here, pangaia Dec 2016 #27

You consistently focus on little straw men of your own design. LanternWaste Dec 2016 #38

Nope. I support all kinds of choices I don't approve of. Coventina Dec 2016 #20

When they tell you they are making a free choice, as the woman you mentioned did Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #21

That would be all very well and good, if it weren't for the fact that millions of women get murdered Coventina Dec 2016 #23

So because many women are raped, Ms. Toad Dec 2016 #24

You are placing all kinds of words in my mouth that were never there. Coventina Dec 2016 #29

You are incredibly brave for posting this. cwydro Dec 2016 #31

It maybe a free choice, but it being a free choice doesn't unshackle it from the misogyny.. JHan Dec 2016 #34

True. A burka or face veils purpose is to disappear women from society and having any power therein. stevenleser Dec 2016 #48

"All of these "choices" that you seem to think are so freely made just do not hold up to any logical stevenleser Dec 2016 #25

Thank you. I just don't understand why that is so difficult to see. n/t Coventina Dec 2016 #30

She cannot really speak for anyone other than herself. MADem Dec 2016 #49

Well, I really don't know what to say about that, except that she was from our local Islamic Coventina Dec 2016 #51

Trump talks a lot, too, but that doesn't mean what he says is true. MADem Dec 2016 #53

Yes, I totally agree. When I pondered her reasoning after the talk, the logic just didn't hold up Coventina Dec 2016 #54

Oh, it absolutely IS taught. Carefully, too (Like the song from South Pacific) MADem Dec 2016 #56

So here's my next question: why are some liberals (see this thread) so DETERMINED to defend it? Coventina Dec 2016 #57

Because they don't understand it and don't have meaningful conversations with anyone who MADem Dec 2016 #58

This: guillaumeb Dec 2016 #55

The hijab also isnt religiously mandated Arazi Dec 2016 #11

True, and this is why some devout Muslim women do not wear any head covering. Coventina Dec 2016 #13

There are no veils between supplicants and Allah. nt MADem Dec 2016 #50

I have truly bifurcated feelings about the hijab etherealtruth Dec 2016 #14

That is one confused argument bhikkhu Dec 2016 #28

I totally agree with you for the most part. Coventina Dec 2016 #32

Not a fan of it but if it is voluntary it is the woman's right. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #33

Question for those who are defending the hijab as a choice Jake Stern Dec 2016 #35

The hijab is an emblem frogmarch Dec 2016 #36

The last thing a "wearer" needs is your look of disgust. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #40

Yeah, for sure. frogmarch Dec 2016 #42

What other victims of male dominated and oppressive religions earn your look of disgust? nt. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #43

Willing ones. frogmarch Dec 2016 #45

Now it makes sense. You lack understanding of oppression. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #46

Many Catholic women will go to the confessional.... NCTraveler Dec 2016 #39

I totally agree that all three Abrahamic faiths are full of sexism, misogyny, racism and violence. Coventina Dec 2016 #41

Women appear naked in front of their husbands (and vice versa), but most... LAS14 Dec 2016 #44

My point is that when you drill down beneath the surface "reasons" Coventina Dec 2016 #47

Forced to wear it get the red out Dec 2016 #52

It's more complicated than you can imagine... there are women who wear it for cultural reasons JCMach1 Dec 2016 #59