General Discussion

Withywindle

(9,989 posts)

6. I think a lot of people confuse hijab with the full cover-up that hides the face.

Reply to apples and oranges (Original post)

Mon Dec 12, 2011, 03:08 PM

Dec 2011

I don't think hijab is oppressive. I've seen a lot of women wear it in a way that's customized and stylish and quite pretty. I've seen plenty of non-Muslim women wearing scarves on their heads when it's chilly and wet outside, no oppression necessary. I agree, it's no different than a yarmulke or a Mennonite bonnet--a religious signifier, but not one that really gets in the way of anything.

I DO think garb that covers the face is oppressive, because it drastically limits communication ability. Humans rely on a LOT of non-verbal information when we speak to each other, facial expressions being pretty much the most important. Westerners at least also have a cultural perception that, with very limited and specific exceptions (masked performance, Halloween, bitterly cold), only criminals hide their faces. Covering the face really does set people apart.

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To those who think the Muslim scarf/hijab is oppressive to women [View all] apples and oranges Dec 2011 OP

It's oppressive to women, and yes, I've watched the show. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #1

"It separates them from Americans" jberryhill Dec 2011 #2

Have you ever looked at Amish males? Do they look like they're wearing hot jeans, cool tops? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #5

Yes, thank you. I can't tell you how many times I've seen, at Disney World in June, iris27 Dec 2011 #8

Absolutely! Past summer I ended up behind a couple, her, covered head to foot, him, nice and cool Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #16

It's a common sight here in Dearborn, too. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #18

"maybe all that cloth was nice and cool somehow (I had no idea how though)" boppers Dec 2011 #115

Then why don't all desert tribes adopt black shrouds? riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #175

What part of Light Wicking Fabric don't you get?> Vincardog Dec 2011 #207

"Light wicking fabric" is not what they are wearing. They are not wearing Cool Max gear riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #209

I live near many Muslims AngryAmish Dec 2011 #129

I've seen catholic men and nuns too jberryhill Dec 2011 #22

These are clergy. Further, both nuns and priests dress in garb, not just nuns. Next point? nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #35

What difference does it make? jberryhill Dec 2011 #46

It's discrimination, it's patriarchal, it gives women no rights, it separates women Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #55

Compelling women to wear or not to wear something is wrong jberryhill Dec 2011 #65

I think I've been quite clear. If you choose to pretend obtuseness, that's your issue, not mine Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #66

You know, it may be because the women in these communities fear sexual assault if they are not CTyankee Dec 2011 #229

I think it is fear. I have Palestinian clients. When they come in to meet with me... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #241

Sexual assault has nothing to do with clothing (or the lack thereof) riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #244

Of course it is a crime of power and control. That doesn't stop fear of it. Obviously, clothing has CTyankee Dec 2011 #247

Clearly you are an educator. riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #249

I don't think I explained this as well as I should.... CTyankee Dec 2011 #251

Aren't 99.9% of religions misogynistic? justiceischeap Dec 2011 #252

I have read any number of articles about Muslim women in Western societies. tblue37 Dec 2011 #105

Yes! I was in Paris the day that ban was enforced, on a muslim woman at the Louvre (of all places!). CTyankee Dec 2011 #242

France, especially has a very strong secular culture that extends back hundreds of years riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #245

When Jacques started complaining about all the non-French people coming into France, I CTyankee Dec 2011 #253

Bad analogy. Nuns, a tiny subset of Catholic women, who do NOT represent catholic women as a whole whathehell Dec 2011 #62

So to be a Real Amercian(tm), you must wear hot jeans and a cool top? Rex Dec 2011 #39

You must've misread. Muslim women are not allowed to blend, whereas Muslim males LOVE to blend Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #42

In America they can do as they please jberryhill Dec 2011 #48

You are aware, aren't you, that it is possible for a woman to embrace patriarchical norms Vattel Dec 2011 #205

Yes jberryhill Dec 2011 #206

No one is claiming that we should. Vattel Dec 2011 #208

You really need to confront the reality of these women's lives. CTyankee Dec 2011 #243

Not all Muslim males LOVE to blend. The gentleman that I work for ScreamingMeemie Dec 2011 #89

I find people who live in South America speak faster than those in North America. boppers Dec 2011 #116

I was going to rant on "American" is more that USA, but decided not to uppityperson Dec 2011 #141

That's probably a good thing. whathehell Dec 2011 #154

I see main-stream americans dressed/coiffed like that on every college campus and bar I've been to. PavePusher Dec 2011 #70

FWIW, here is a picture explaining the difference between hijab and niqab. Amish aren't "American"? uppityperson Dec 2011 #83

Thing is both Amish men AND women have adopted a dress code LynneSin Dec 2011 #149

You explained it perfectly! That's exactly what it is. nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #150

I don't have a problem with dress codes LynneSin Dec 2011 #158

Exactly nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #166

Of course I've seen the way Sikh men dress. AND SIKH WOMEN. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #9

The OP is about the hijab jberryhill Dec 2011 #51

Do you consider yourself to be judgmental? Quantess Dec 2011 #78

Yes, it does. Most emphatically. Liberals would prefer that it doesn't, but it does. saras Dec 2011 #29

So, what are the standard "American values" one must adhere to to be part of the cool club? n/t PavePusher Dec 2011 #72

actually, if you are born here you are American. Jeez. If you are going to wheeze about the roguevalley Dec 2011 #100

omg. That is one of the oddest "american" definition I've ever read by a Duer uppityperson Dec 2011 #104

omg....What part of the word "irony" do you not understand? whathehell Dec 2011 #157

However, American values is not in those quote marks uppityperson Dec 2011 #160

Riiiiiight. whathehell Dec 2011 #171

"It separates them from Americans."--- "Yes, it does. Most emphatically." uppityperson Dec 2011 #172

No more than my western dress would separate me from most women in Afghanistan whathehell Dec 2011 #177

Except "western dress" wasn't the term. Fail uppityperson Dec 2011 #188

Fail yourself: You don't even know what "western dress" is in this context. See post 198 whathehell Dec 2011 #199

Amazing how you change definitions, expand or narrow them, to fit your view uppityperson Dec 2011 #200

Um..No again..I never changed definitions...You "defined" it along narrow national lines, whereas whathehell Dec 2011 #201

It separates us from OTHER Americans, yes. aquart Dec 2011 #33

This has nothing to do with tribal instincts - this is outright gender discrimination Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #44

You are talking about tribes *within* Muslim society. boppers Dec 2011 #117

Are you sure you watched? Because half the women in the show, apples and oranges Dec 2011 #15

Sure I've seen it, and the one that is completely a master of her own life feels constantly attacked Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #34

Well said. - n/t Zenlitened Dec 2011 #76

"It separates them from Americans". WTF? What the heck is "American dress"? uppityperson Dec 2011 #82

that little grayhound is awesome roguevalley Dec 2011 #101

He's "haram" in Islam, though. MADem Dec 2011 #226

Lose the faux outrage....What you're speaking of is more properly known as "western dress" whathehell Dec 2011 #178

Except that is not what was said. If you want to get specific.... uppityperson Dec 2011 #191

Um, no..Western refers to the "western" part of the WORLD, not the "western" part of this country whathehell Dec 2011 #198

NO. The headscarf must cover the hair and neck entirely. MADem Dec 2011 #213

Ah, you mean like this? uppityperson Dec 2011 #214

Why are you showing us a photo of an actress, in make-up, mis-wearing a nun's habit, MADem Dec 2011 #216

well said and well written Tumbulu Dec 2011 #92

actually, I wear one because of the cold up here and they are awesome. roguevalley Dec 2011 #99

Muslims aren't Americans????? Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #111

You paint with a broad brush. Skidmore Dec 2011 #121

A style of head and body gear that is required upon threat of punishment (and even death)... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #139

+10 n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #180

The truth is, though, that men have more latitude than women when it comes to dress. MADem Dec 2011 #217

I lived in Iran for 10 years Skidmore Dec 2011 #220

Have you been there since Shah left? MADem Dec 2011 #222

Yes, I was there Skidmore Dec 2011 #224

My observation (and, as you see in the 2nd video) is that the "chemical veil" as you call it, is not MADem Dec 2011 #225

Sorry to see that semantics distracted from your point. redqueen Dec 2011 #147

Thanks! nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #148

If you are brainwashed from a young age a lot of times it sticks snooper2 Dec 2011 #3

From what you've seen Codeine Dec 2011 #4

I think a lot of people confuse hijab with the full cover-up that hides the face. Withywindle Dec 2011 #6

"facial expressions being pretty much the most important" boppers Dec 2011 #118

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to marginalize ASD people. Withywindle Dec 2011 #145

It very much gets in the way of some things. MADem Dec 2011 #234

Completely voluntary? Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #7

+1 iris27 Dec 2011 #11

I totally agree. The males can wear anything they want - and they do!!! Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #12

The attitude among men in muslim cultures is Quantess Dec 2011 #19

Quantess, you're absolutely right. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #32

Patriarchal religions are oppressive to women and those are pretty much all we've got. aquart Dec 2011 #36

All the more reasons we should be honest and speak up when we see the signs of opression bettyellen Dec 2011 #106

"and blended in perfectly with the rest of American society" jberryhill Dec 2011 #24

Nuns are an anomalie. Quantess Dec 2011 #27

I think my explanation was more accurate and certainly less judgemental....A "backwater provision"? whathehell Dec 2011 #124

Also, I live in europe, not sure if that makes a difference to you. Quantess Dec 2011 #31

Ummmm... I didn't reply to your post jberryhill Dec 2011 #45

Oops. okay, sorry! Quantess Dec 2011 #53

I obviously have confused you, so let me be clear. I have ZERO patience with male-ruled societies Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #59

Where would you stand on matriarchal societies? 11 Bravo Dec 2011 #85

Where would that be? Maccagirl Dec 2011 #134

I wasn't offering a geography lesson. I simply asked what your response would be to such a society. 11 Bravo Dec 2011 #174

I haven't seen a nun in a full habit in the USA since the late sixties/early seventies. MADem Dec 2011 #218

I cordially invite you to any of a number of festivals in my area jberryhill Dec 2011 #219

Take pictures next time you're at one of those things. It's not a common thing in the rest of the MADem Dec 2011 #223

"The males can wear anything they want - and they do!!!" boppers Dec 2011 #119

Or wear dresses of most sorts? uppityperson Dec 2011 #142

Indeed, Sir: That Is the Rub The Magistrate Dec 2011 #13

I question yours -- and others' -- use of the phrase "purely voluntary" Remember Me Dec 2011 #63

You Are Shooting At Someone On Your Own Side, Sir The Magistrate Dec 2011 #73

Try black Hijab when it is 120+ outside and get back to me if you don't think it is oppression JCMach1 Dec 2011 #95

I live in Dearborn, Michigan. I think this is a simplistic take. Romulox Dec 2011 #10

I agree (in Westland) most don't. Although it is certainly sufrommich Dec 2011 #25

Hi su. I am a JGHS grad! Romulox Dec 2011 #37

Holy Crap, so am I!! sufrommich Dec 2011 #54

As long as there are significant portions of the world where women are beaten or even killed aint_no_life_nowhere Dec 2011 #14

You have identified the very heart of the issue etherealtruth Dec 2011 #230

I think uncomfortable shoes, business suits, and neckties are oppressive. hunter Dec 2011 #17

Get a kilt. boppers Dec 2011 #120

try a skirt, pantyhose and heels TorchTheWitch Dec 2011 #250

It is not completely voluntary everywhere Marrah_G Dec 2011 #20

It is no more or less "oppressive" than Amish women wearing their caps. kestrel91316 Dec 2011 #21

Surely you don't mean that -- ? Remember Me Dec 2011 #68

You should talk to my sister in law...member of a fundy church. peace13 Dec 2011 #164

if subjugating your entire being OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #173

It goes back to those nasty ol' personal freedoms. peace13 Dec 2011 #186

And I don't think that free choice to wear what one wants or worship how they choose OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #192

Who's we? peace13 Dec 2011 #193

really? Scary? OriginalGeek Dec 2011 #195

Oh please....Of course it is. whathehell Dec 2011 #240

Of course it's voluntary in Dearborn, Mi. How could sufrommich Dec 2011 #23

But if the men in the family pressure or threaten a female tblue37 Dec 2011 #107

people can be oppressed regardless of laws Marrah_G Dec 2011 #138

Why do you think the TLC puff piece represents the experience of all ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2011 #26

It's not the scarf, it's the religion that's oppressive. Scarves don't stone women to death saras Dec 2011 #28

Yeah, whatever....The scarf, acorrding to many muslims, is part of the religion's modesty dictate whathehell Dec 2011 #123

Isn't it amazing how beautiful those women are in their scarves. peace13 Dec 2011 #165

I don't find the scarf particularly "beautifying", whathehell Dec 2011 #170

To each his own. peace13 Dec 2011 #185

"To each his own"....Yes, if that were only the case! whathehell Dec 2011 #228

It does attract attention riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #246

Hair is associated with beauty. And of course, every damn thing is associated with sex! MADem Dec 2011 #227

Exactly! whathehell Dec 2011 #232

I had to laugh at the recent ruling about cucumbers and carrots.... MADem Dec 2011 #233

OMG....Are they for real?...Seriously...This is like the whathehell Dec 2011 #236

If you look upthread, you'll see a few videos I linked over here of the MP at work in Iran. MADem Dec 2011 #238

No one can tell me that what you're describing is not sick... whathehell Dec 2011 #239

Islam dictates that women dress modestly ... etherealtruth Dec 2011 #231

Voluntary! LOL! aquart Dec 2011 #30

I'm neither Muslim nor woman Jack Rabbit Dec 2011 #38

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #41

LOL!!! Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #49

condescending is so sad. Truly. I am however terribly glad that you are standing point to roguevalley Dec 2011 #102

I'm not a Muslim but I am a woman... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #112

Yeah, sure.. whathehell Dec 2011 #126

I haven't seen the show, but I friends with actual women who are Muslim and uncovered REP Dec 2011 #40

Another take loyalsister Dec 2011 #136

I think handmade34 Dec 2011 #43

Males do not force females to wear high heels - and they are but one of many options of dress Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #47

Many men do indeed dictate what their wives wear jberryhill Dec 2011 #50

I'm sure, and some people are pedophiles. What does that have to do with a patriarchal society? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #56

In the US, any woman should remove herself from such an organization if she wants jberryhill Dec 2011 #60

Some do. Guess we should call for a banning of high heels! Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #113

Oh please... whathehell Dec 2011 #131

Let me put it this way: I think religion is oppressive to humanity Taverner Dec 2011 #52

You won't get too much argument from me there! nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #57

We DO agree on some things Taverner Dec 2011 #58

It does that. And it controls minds. nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #69

Yes I like to think of religion as adware or spyware in your brain Taverner Dec 2011 #75

Maybe, but according to many muslims, the head and other body part coverings are "cultural" whathehell Dec 2011 #132

I knew a progressive, independent muslim woman Blue_Tires Dec 2011 #61

Some people object to women having a choice one way or the other jberryhill Dec 2011 #67

Where do you get that? Remember Me Dec 2011 #71

Let's just say the topic of this thread has a long history jberryhill Dec 2011 #74

"We shall use patriarchal systems to stop patriarchy!" boppers Dec 2011 #122

don't forget beards MisterP Dec 2011 #64

I watched some of it last night. One of the couples were forcing Liquorice Dec 2011 #77

I would never give up my dogs! pitbullgirl1965 Dec 2011 #79

I don't know. I had to turn it when the guy started crying while looking at the ad Liquorice Dec 2011 #81

Something strange that I have noticed. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #80

I have the head cover and a pashmina scarf that I wear when its cold and fuck the world. roguevalley Dec 2011 #103

Oh hell no. a la izquierda Dec 2011 #135

Good for you! I'm less daring. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #179

I think it all depends on where one lives... a la izquierda Dec 2011 #181

I watched the episode where they went to the hijab store... YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #84

Maybe, but not on a hot summer day, I'd bet. n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #133

They use a breathable fabric. YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #155

You try covering your head and neck in a "breathable fabric" on a hot, sunny day whathehell Dec 2011 #159

Like these....? uppityperson Dec 2011 #161

No...Not like those. whathehell Dec 2011 #169

Well, they are from the desert. YellowRubberDuckie Dec 2011 #187

Uhm, only the patriarchal, misogynistic tribes in the ME dress their women like this in the desert riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #194

THANK you!...n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #210

i have a radical idea, stop letting television tell you how to think pitohui Dec 2011 #86

I think any religious garb is oppressive to whomever wears it, however, if they choose to Cleita Dec 2011 #87

Did they ask the "All-Afghani Muslims"? WinkyDink Dec 2011 #88

Any policy that mostly targets minority women for punishment, should be suspect. ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #90

Any clothing designed by males to remove all individuality LadyHawkAZ Dec 2011 #91

they might if men are not punished for rape Tumbulu Dec 2011 #93

Amen, sister! CTyankee Dec 2011 #248

It's only voluntary for the man who makes the decision on behalf of his wife. She has no say. She's Monk06 Dec 2011 #94

Reminds me of the Confederate flag controversy... it's a symbol JCMach1 Dec 2011 #96

At any rate the women on that show are very beautiful. peace13 Dec 2011 #97

It is voluntary and any man who tries to force a wife, daughter or sister Warpy Dec 2011 #98

It sure didn't look voluntary on that show last night. One of the couples Liquorice Dec 2011 #108

As soon as those girls get into middle school and get lockers Warpy Dec 2011 #109

"voluntary" does not necessarily mean it is not oppressive Skittles Dec 2011 #110

I worked with a woman who wore a hijab. She wasn't oppressed at all... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #114

I worked with a battered woman who acted as though.. Little Star Dec 2011 #128

and you know that - when a women wears a scarf - it can only be because she is being oppressed? Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #146

Sorry to burst your rant..... Little Star Dec 2011 #152

nor does it mean that they are oppressed just because they don't conform to your model or my model Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #162

Nor does it mean that some of them are not oppressed... Little Star Dec 2011 #184

sometimes a scarf is just a scarf Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #143

just as it is dishonest to give societies a cultural pass that pushes women to dress in a manner Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #144

Like this....? uppityperson Dec 2011 #156

absolutely right, I am not giving us a pass either. Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #163

as long as you bare in mind that Western civilization has plenty of faults too Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #167

hijab, burqa, the pressure is the same... JCMach1 Dec 2011 #196

I'm sorry, but you might need to explain what pressure my colleague was under... Violet_Crumble Dec 2011 #197

I hold to my Confederate Flag analogy... yes, it is a symbol we all understand that JCMach1 Dec 2011 #204

Sometimes brain-washed people can't do voluntary... Little Star Dec 2011 #125

I find all religious dress offensive and irritating Bragi Dec 2011 #127

The Conservative Tent is so small � Cigar11 Dec 2011 #130

There are multiple reasons why a women might don the hijab... Orsino Dec 2011 #137

People who wear religious garb and jewelry are displaying their irrationality FarCenter Dec 2011 #140

The Predictable Atheist Insult whathehell Dec 2011 #151

People who dismiss all who aren't atheist as "irrational" are intolerant bigots. whathehell Dec 2011 #182

As someone who has lived in the Muslim world, it's "voluntary" all right--if the male head of MADem Dec 2011 #153

if you are talking of Sauid or the Gulf States..that is mostly likely true Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #168

Sadly, we see "honor" attacks and killings even in the western world. MADem Dec 2011 #212

For those who are seeking some balance in their film diet, and some views from INSIDE kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #176

I would also like to suggest a book Marrah_G Dec 2011 #211

Depends, in some cases it is voluntary in other cases not so much Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #183

I have a bridge to sell you. MH1 Dec 2011 #189

Of course it's oppressive. frogmarch Dec 2011 #190

Or it could be that they've simply adopted the dominant message. redqueen Dec 2011 #202

I see your point, and frogmarch Dec 2011 #203

I am ready for American Pigheaded Dec 2011 #215

Matisyahu would have been a great candidate for American Jew! MADem Dec 2011 #235

I think pants are oppressive to men. And why do women have to cover their breasts? McCamy Taylor Dec 2011 #221

Really?...Then maybe men should wear panty hose and dresses, if they prefer whathehell Dec 2011 #237

Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) areefamalik Mar 2012 #254