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modrepub

(3,495 posts)
80. I call BS
Sat Oct 13, 2018, 10:22 AM
Oct 2018

Lee had two offensive campaigns into Union Territory and he lost both spectacularly. IMO the Gettysburg Campaign really showed Lee's ineptitude, which he himself recognized when he offered to resign after that disaster. Here is a list of his blunders from that campaign that I feel nobody talks about.

No Objective: Lee's strategy was to move north, draw the Army of the Potomac away from the Confederacy and win some pitched battle so that the Union would have to abandon its siege at Vicksburg. Longstreet was overruled by Lee and Davis when he suggested detaching troops from the Army of Northern Virginia to relieve the siege. IMO, Lee should have aggressively moved north towards Harrisburg, captured the northern capital and cut the Pennsylvania Rail Road line. Having no objective from the get go got Lee in trouble when his calvary under Stewart got separated from Lee's army until the second day at Gettysburg.

State of the Army of the Potomac: Keep in mind Lee had just defeated the Army of the Potomac, which was twice the size of his, at Chancellorsville. The Army of the Potomac was reduced in size after the battle since Lincoln had no desire to let Hooker lead if for another battle. Lincoln refused to let Hooker take command of the Union garrison at Harper's Ferry and Hooker resigned. Let that sink in, Lee is already moving into Pennsylvania causing great panic and Lincoln allows the leading general of his largest army to resign. Lincoln decides to nominate Meade right before the most important campaign of the Civil War. To complicate matters, Meade is not the senior general inside the Army of the Potomac; there are two others who are senior to him. Lincoln's logic in selecting Meade was that he was from Pennsylvania (Philadelphia) so he'd be more apt to fight on his own soil and more importantly, Meade had no political aspirations or support. Lucky for Lincoln he chose a very capable officer who thought he was being arrested for criticizing Hooker when they showed up in the middle of the night to tell him he was receiving command of the Army of the Potomac just days before one of the most crucial battles of the Civil War.

Use of Subordinates at Gettysburg: Probably one of the only bright spots for the Union at Chancellorsville was Lee's loss of one of his most capable generals when Jackson was killed (by shots from his own troops). That left Lee with one experienced corp commander, Longstreet. Strangely, Lee kept Longstreet's corp in the rear protecting his army's escape route should disaster happen. That meant that Lee's army would initially come in contact with Union (reserve) units with somewhat inexperienced commanders. Contrast that with Meade who pushed his most experienced general, Reynolds at the head of his army. Reynolds would be killed early on the first day of Gettysburg and Union forces would eventually be routed by superior Confederate numbers. Before Reynolds is killed he sends back a message to Meade that he has engaged Lee's army and he holds a strong position (on Seminary Ridge) at Gettysburg that he thinks the Union can hold. Meade, who has chosen a spot in Maryland to try and engage Lee trusts his subordinate's judgement and begins moving his other corps to Gettysburg. When Meade learns of Reynolds death he is distraught at his fellow Pennsylvanian's death but sends another capable general, Hancock to take charge and assess the situation. Hancock arrives late on the first day as the Union army is streaming out of Gettysburg. He steadies the troops on Cemetery ridge and sends a message back to Meade that he still likes the position. Meade again trusts his subordinate and hurries the final units to Gettysburg, which arrive during the early morning hours of the second day. Perhaps the first day would have gone better for Lee if his most capable general was on the field. Maybe the disaster of Picket's charge would have been avoided if Lee had listened to his subordinate's assessment to go around Meade's strong position. Not having Stewart's calvary until the end of the battled didn't help but again that's on Lee for not having a definitive game plan for the campaign.

Movement During the Battle: Lee was never a corps commander so he tended to stay in his tent rather than go out and assess the situation. He didn't arrive on the battlefield until the second day and wasted most of that day waiting for Longstreet's corp to come over from Chambersburg. Meade had his army in place very early on the second day following the old adage for successful Civil War commanders, move aggressively and fight defensively. The better movement of the Union army's corp probably had two reason's. One was the Union calvary was able to screen Lee's troops allowing the army to move unhindered and trick Lee's corps generals into thinking they were engaging more men than they actually were since calvary fire arms fired at a faster rate then the muzzle loaded infantry units. Second was the Union corps had much fewer troops by design. McClellan had designed Union smaller corps to more easily move along roads. Lee divided his army into three much larger corps, which simplified the command structure but made road movements much more cumbersome. Meade was originally a corps commander and was used to riding in the field and observing his troops. It was during one of these trips that he found General Sickles corp out of position; he was supposed to be on the Round Tops anchoring the army's left flank. When confronted by Meade, Sickles said the ground he had chosen was higher then his previous position. Meade told him that he could find higher ground right up to South Mountain. When Sickles offered to withdraw his troops back to his original position Meade told him that "those men won't let you", a reference to Longstreet's corp which was beginning to engage Sickles out of position corps. Meade's action on this side of the battlefield are never recognized. All the credit for the Union's heroic hold of the Round Tops would go to the commander of the 10th Maine, Joshua Chamberlin. None of this might ever have happened if Meade personally hadn't rode out to inspect this position. There was one stage during this in which Meade and his staff were nearly alone on the round tops as a company of confederates approached the position. Meade calmly drew his sword as his staff nervously did the same. At the last minute a company of Union soldiers showed up and Meade quickly encouraged their placement. Afterwards when one of his staff commented on how bad their previous predicament looked Meade was said to say, "Yes, but it's all right now! It's all right now!"


Sorry for the long rant but I can't stand to hear about how great Lee was as a general. IMO it ranks up there with the State's Rights Civil War fallacy.

Didn't Lee surrender to Grant? The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2018 #1
Guess he's going to Georgia next to praise General Sherman. Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Oct 2018 #11
Quick, get Hillary to tell him it's politically incorrect. Girard442 Oct 2018 #18
That should fire them up TEB Oct 2018 #132
Cheeto Benito isn't trying to impress Ohioans who are proud of U.S. Grant Cirque du So-What Oct 2018 #15
Did you watch the video? oberliner Oct 2018 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author thucythucy Oct 2018 #33
I won't watch the video, just had breakfast and I intend to keep it down groundloop Oct 2018 #76
Fair enough oberliner Oct 2018 #93
True atreides1 Oct 2018 #129
he was the only commander to surrender twice joe_stampingbull Oct 2018 #69
Do not get angry at his comment Perseus Oct 2018 #70
Americans in general should be proud of Grant, who despite much malignity, was not only... NNadir Oct 2018 #81
Thank you Marthe48 Oct 2018 #83
My pleasure. I love to extol the wonderful legacy of PRESIDENT Grant. NNadir Oct 2018 #87
I always admired Grant, but my admiration increased exponentially when I read 'Grant' by Ron Chernow Aristus Oct 2018 #90
I agree. I think that Grant simply had a low tolerance for alcohol, but in no way... NNadir Oct 2018 #94
White People Love Grant. Whatever! AllTooEasy Oct 2018 #109
Really? NNadir Oct 2018 #112
when i visited manhattan. i think his tomb was the 1st thing i went to see. pansypoo53219 Oct 2018 #113
There's a biography of him that I want to read - The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2018 #135
You're probably referring to the Chernow book. There are several other major biographies that... NNadir Oct 2018 #136
I think that's the one. I'll be reading it as soon as I can get my hands on it. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2018 #137
It is disturbing he got cheers JonLP24 Oct 2018 #121
What an idiot. gtar100 Oct 2018 #2
Guess he's bucking for NRA President. They had Confederate loving Prez a few years ago from Alabama. Hoyt Oct 2018 #3
I answered an almost identical post a few minutes ago... TreasonousBastard Oct 2018 #4
One word Gettysburg wasupaloopa Oct 2018 #5
Lee lost. Trump doesn't like losers. Skruffy Oct 2018 #6
Lee lost, Grant won. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2018 #8
Brain fart, sorry. I meant... Skruffy Oct 2018 #9
Trump is a moran Ligyron Oct 2018 #7
A great tactician, who broke his oath as a U.S. Army officer. TomSlick Oct 2018 #13
Lee was a very good General Lithos Oct 2018 #20
Lee was also a racist that supported a traitorous cause. kwassa Oct 2018 #31
The majority of people were racist in the 19th Century Lithos Oct 2018 #34
Those stories about Lee being an enlightened slaveowner aren't true. yardwork Oct 2018 #54
I grew up in the South and went to public school there. The myth of the benevolent Lee is just that: Aristus Oct 2018 #99
I grew up in the South as well - still live here Lithos Oct 2018 #119
Who honor him as a hero JonLP24 Oct 2018 #123
Still a traitor though, along with the rest of the confederates. brush Oct 2018 #142
Good post, good points. K&R. brush Oct 2018 #141
There were the radical Republicans who wanted to go further than Lincoln JonLP24 Oct 2018 #122
No but the discussion is about his generalship. Kaleva Oct 2018 #108
Sorry. Montgomery may have been over-cautious, but he never took up arms against his country TomSlick Oct 2018 #32
The idea of Nationalism was cemented in the Civil War Lithos Oct 2018 #36
Yes,in Southwestern Ohio True Blue American Oct 2018 #49
Precisely Sherman A1 Oct 2018 #56
He was a terrible general. Scruffy1 Oct 2018 #64
THANK YOU The Mouth Oct 2018 #68
Excellent. This admiration of Lee was created during a previous rise of white supremacy. yardwork Oct 2018 #130
The Worst President EVER!!!! Grassy Knoll Oct 2018 #10
I like Generals who don't lose. SunSeeker Oct 2018 #12
I Like Presidents Who Didn't Get Investigated For That Russer Thing Grassy Knoll Oct 2018 #16
I like Presidents who don't fellate dictators. nt SunSeeker Oct 2018 #22
Lol... Grassy Knoll Oct 2018 #26
Gotta love the "uneducated". Kajun Gal Oct 2018 #14
Grant and Sherman were both born in Ohio TheRealNorth Oct 2018 #17
Might I suggest the phrase Lithos Oct 2018 #21
Did you watch the video? oberliner Oct 2018 #29
I watched the video twice True Blue American Oct 2018 #53
He definitely is ignorant oberliner Oct 2018 #59
But he went on and on True Blue American Oct 2018 #60
Good point oberliner Oct 2018 #62
Playing to transplanted Southerners True Blue American Oct 2018 #61
I was once called Judgmental by calling Trump a racist. djacq Oct 2018 #19
George Pickett disagrees. RockRaven Oct 2018 #23
Thank God you republicans won that war... You really whipped those Southerners. keithbvadu2 Oct 2018 #24
Do they teach SS in school these days? mobeau69 Oct 2018 #55
The KKK was huge in Ohio in the early 20th century. world wide wally Oct 2018 #25
Civil War History with Professor Fuck Blue Owl Oct 2018 #27
Did anyone who commented on this actually watch the video? oberliner Oct 2018 #30
Ofcourse not AllTooEasy Oct 2018 #110
Yes I saw the whole thing JonLP24 Oct 2018 #124
Miles Kahn makes the point better than I can oberliner Oct 2018 #127
He said he was a great general JonLP24 Oct 2018 #128
This is the guy having a love affair with Kim Jong Un (wonder how Melania feels about that?) !! George II Oct 2018 #35
Lee was a great General elmac Oct 2018 #37
Lincoln did ask Lee to lead the Union army Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #38
Nah, not so great. See post #64. And he was a traitor and racist. brush Oct 2018 #73
being a great general doesn't mean your a grear person elmac Oct 2018 #95
True. Still not a great general though...Post #64. brush Oct 2018 #97
People who argue Pickett's Charge was a mistake don't offer other options where Lee could have won Kaleva Oct 2018 #116
I like your take. Good analysis. brush Oct 2018 #118
IMHO, Lee should never have been in Pennsylvania in the first place. Kaleva Oct 2018 #139
How About This Option ProfessorGAC Oct 2018 #133
Tha't very close to what I said. Kaleva Oct 2018 #138
Not surprising.. LW1977 Oct 2018 #39
HE WAS A TRAITOR, PERIOD. brush Oct 2018 #40
No, make that a comma and add safeinOhio Oct 2018 #47
Right. I stand corrected. brush Oct 2018 #72
right you are! joe_stampingbull Oct 2018 #71
Lee was a treasonous traitor , duforsure Oct 2018 #41
Who gives a shit? BlueStater Oct 2018 #42
Germans, don't give him a chance to go over there. raccoon Oct 2018 #45
Reagan paid homage to Nazi SS soldiers. keithbvadu2 Oct 2018 #115
Have you ever seen the movie The Desert Fox? oberliner Oct 2018 #107
KKK in the Oval Office. LudwigPastorius Oct 2018 #43
Playing to his base, clearly. And maybe trying to piss off liberals. NT raccoon Oct 2018 #44
I only like generals that win a Civil War . . . . . . no_hypocrisy Oct 2018 #46
Hitler praise coming in 5-4-3-2-1 sellitman Oct 2018 #48
This is what I was taught in school (Ohio, 1990's) Bradical79 Oct 2018 #50
In a former Union State? no_hypocrisy Oct 2018 #51
Yup. Bradical79 Oct 2018 #67
Where in Ohio did you learn that? True Blue American Oct 2018 #63
A subburb of Columbus Bradical79 Oct 2018 #66
I live in a suburb north of Dayton True Blue American Oct 2018 #88
So that means that the GOP is no longer "the party of Lincoln"? BumRushDaShow Oct 2018 #52
Yes, Lee was a good general but he did lose the war and if McClellan had followed Lee after ..... Botany Oct 2018 #57
I didn't know Sheridan was from Ohio too. Don't know much about his Civil War... brush Oct 2018 #75
He grew up in Somerset, OH Botany Oct 2018 #82
Have to check that one out.;( True Blue American Oct 2018 #91
I 71 north bound about a few miles after you cross the Miami River valley ..... Botany Oct 2018 #92
Honestly I am in Lebanon quite often True Blue American Oct 2018 #96
Just an aside d_r Oct 2018 #58
I wonder if Trump would change his mind if someone told him that Lee, having Baitball Blogger Oct 2018 #65
I'd like to point out, as a sidebar, that Rump went down to Floribama to campaign for pedo Moore, Mc Mike Oct 2018 #74
Not to worry............. MyOwnPeace Oct 2018 #77
Trump is an idiot. Lee lost most of the battles he commanded Major Nikon Oct 2018 #78
Yeah, I was kind of True Blue American Oct 2018 #98
What the hell is he talking about? Polly Hennessey Oct 2018 #79
I call BS modrepub Oct 2018 #80
A very nice discussion of one of the most discussed campaigns in the Civil War. NNadir Oct 2018 #84
If I can add: the entire Eastern theater is overglamorized, overanalyzed, and overrated Recursion Oct 2018 #85
Excellent point. n/t. NNadir Oct 2018 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author lapfog_1 Oct 2018 #106
This message was self-deleted by its author geralmar Oct 2018 #120
Burns fell under Shelby Foote's spell Recursion Oct 2018 #126
Here's An Observation modrepub Oct 2018 #131
I might add a slightly different view of that Recursion Oct 2018 #134
Colonel Chamberlin gladium et scutum Oct 2018 #117
Right. And Donald J. Trump was a great president. SKKY Oct 2018 #86
So now Abe Lincoln was a "loser" according to the Orange Fuhrer. Vinca Oct 2018 #100
Official republican position - Lincoln was our nation's greatest leader keithbvadu2 Oct 2018 #114
One word, Cheetolini: Appamatox. muntrv Oct 2018 #101
I love to hear what Newt Gingrich thinks of rump's remarks. He's written a book (maybe ... SWBTATTReg Oct 2018 #102
He was a great general. tazkcmo Oct 2018 #103
Lots of Southern soldiers were drafted. They may not have believed in raccoon Oct 2018 #104
someone should edit some Fox News video & figure out how to feed it to his TV... yurbud Oct 2018 #105
So Was Benedict Arnold, But They Were Both Traitors louis c Oct 2018 #111
Robert E. Lee descandents distance themselves from WS more than Trump JonLP24 Oct 2018 #125
Threadkilla! 7wo7rees Oct 2018 #140
Lee was Lincoln's first pick to lead the Union Army. Xolodno Oct 2018 #143
Lee was another loser duforsure Oct 2018 #144
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