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Igel

(35,300 posts)
24. Depends on how hard you dig.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:21 AM
Jun 2014

The immediate cause would be support for the uprising against Assad. Without that there wouldn't have been the flood of jihadis into Syria, the establishment of territory in a large part of the country for ISIS to form and later morph into ISIL. Want an immediate cause, there you have it.

Of course, there's a lot of piddling in that, too. So when we started to help some anti-Assad groups, the "usual suspects" on the Peninsula helped their preferred anti-Assad groups. Weapons, money, etc. Without that help the "cause" might not have gotten to where it is.

The instability in Iraq is certainly a contributing factor. The Shi'ite government--nicely majoritarian, BTW, for those that love majoritarianism--has been treating the "out of power people" rather badly. It's bred resentment where none needed additional breeding.

Removing the strong-man Saddam was a factor, to be sure. It let all the forces that he'd helped build up explode. For Saddam was nothing if not sectarian--from seizing Shi'ite mosques and giving them to Sunni populations, moving Sunnis to Shi'ite areas to divide the area, re-establishing the authority of traditional tribes and playing them off against each other, esp. widening the Sunni/Shi'ite divide. Thanks to Saddam, most Sunnis were convinced that they were a majority of the population and the primary economic driver. They weren't, of course, but myth is stronger than fact for a lot of people. When you find somebody who likes driving wedges between people to shore up their base, you know you're looking at a horrible person.

Then there were the corrupt and the smugglers who made a lot of money under Saddam. They certainly didn't like losing influence. Like under Hamas in Gaza, the government knew who they were and what they were doing.

Anti-US protesters tended to support the anti-Assad protesters. Oops. They also defended, even when they should have known better, some of the nastier secular trends that Saddam employed to cause religious extremism to flourish. ("Secular" means "long-term" here. Yes, it's an established meaning of the word.)

But we should let history decide bahrbearian Jun 2014 #1
I guess we won't know.... xocet Jun 2014 #31
'Bush to Raise Money for Group That Converts Jews to Bring About Second Coming of Christ' cprise Jun 2014 #38
Thanks for the link. The MJ article is very interesting. n/t xocet Jun 2014 #41
I think back to 2003... jimlup Jun 2014 #2
Short answer.... pocoloco Jun 2014 #4
They weren't just clueless, they were blinded by greed and their own screwball dogma Warpy Jun 2014 #32
I know what we should do about the mess over there now. calimary Jun 2014 #34
Yes! jimlup Jun 2014 #37
How many, would you like to bet RoccoR5955 Jun 2014 #48
i like it barbtries Jun 2014 #50
I said then, and say now: ballyhoo Jun 2014 #3
Watch for It! yellowwoodII Jun 2014 #5
Yep. nt abelenkpe Jun 2014 #10
Hillary would have us back there in a heart beat. L0oniX Jun 2014 #15
It will be interesting to see what she says after her recent "still wrong" comment. CrispyQ Jun 2014 #40
I have a dreadful feeling we'll start hearing a lot of "the war was wrong but we broke it.." arcane1 Jun 2014 #43
Yep. There's always plenty of justification when the corporations can make a buck. -nt CrispyQ Jun 2014 #45
They're gnashing their teeth we didn't stay in Iraq, and are blaming Obama for what's happening now. Martin Eden Jun 2014 #28
W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, and David Rumsfeld ignored the history of the art of war TRoN33 Jun 2014 #6
Agreed. And let's consider what our $2 trillion war has done for the average Iraqi. sinkingfeeling Jun 2014 #7
well, i participated in demonstration(s) Leme Jun 2014 #8
Leme Diclotican Jun 2014 #11
Zero offense meant, in fact a true good for you and those who demonstrated Leme Jun 2014 #20
Leme Diclotican Jun 2014 #25
thinking about it, i may have participated in a protest of the 2nd Iraq war, just few showed up Leme Jun 2014 #22
Leme Diclotican Jun 2014 #29
the meek response from the Democrats convinced me the fix was in, not like I had major doubts anyway Leme Jun 2014 #33
Yep, and since there wasn't a draft, most Americans were cool with it. raccoon Jun 2014 #49
I went to 6 anti-Iraq war demos in 2002/3 T_i_B Jun 2014 #51
T_i_B Diclotican Jun 2014 #9
Rich people must get richer. That's THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD. valerief Jun 2014 #12
I don't remember Bill Clinton's exact words, but... Jerry442 Jun 2014 #13
It was all about war for profit The Wizard Jun 2014 #14
The Clown Prince says he has a clear conscience. Which is horseshit, of course. Aristus Jun 2014 #16
So when RoccoR5955 Jun 2014 #17
No trials. Let's not bother. Let's have them go over there and fight! calimary Jun 2014 #35
We have been correct so many times... RoccoR5955 Jun 2014 #47
Yeah, true. But a lot of people made money off MIC stocks. raouldukelives Jun 2014 #18
Yet another reason why ... DrBulldog Jun 2014 #19
K&R Paka Jun 2014 #21
We shall hope history puts the blame where blame is due... liberal N proud Jun 2014 #23
Depends on how hard you dig. Igel Jun 2014 #24
I marched in all the pre-war demonstrations from Afghanistan to Iraq lunatica Jun 2014 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author lunatica Jun 2014 #27
I think it's a little more complicated than that and they do not necessarily have to be a underthematrix Jun 2014 #30
Heckuva job, Frat Boy Jack Rabbit Jun 2014 #36
I too marched Girl powers Jun 2014 #39
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Jun 2014 #42
Money Trumps Peace! nt stillwaiting Jun 2014 #44
Think Progress "Why The Middle East Is Now A Giant Warzone, In One Terrifying Chart" kristopher Jun 2014 #46
I wish my dad were alive JustAnotherGen Jun 2014 #52
Same here. GreenPartyVoter Jun 2014 #53
Yes..we were. Thanks for the post. KoKo Jun 2014 #54
Very true and very sad. LeftishBrit Jun 2014 #55
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