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Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
30. Neither agree nor disagree
Fri May 24, 2013, 12:50 PM
May 2013

I don't know about the precise figure. I would say that, being a gov org, the EIA is going to be conservative. What they aren't going to take account of is not just increases in technological efficiency - I'm sure they have that factored in - but the market impact of the combination of increased efficiency + the downward pressure on fossil fuel prices.
That latter is the key.
The simple fact is, wind has already displaced oil. It will begin to displace the other fossil fuels starting now. No one is getting that.
This is what will happen: any mineral extraction, whether it be from mining or drilling, is undertaken because it is above breakeven by enough to make it worthwhile. If the price declines by enough, breakeven points disappear and mining/drilling stop. Then you get a weird effect: the price rises as supply disappears faster than demand. While this will stimulate more mining/drilling after a while that will then lower the price again, it will also make utilities think twice about using something where the price jumps around too much. Fossil fuel prices are already notoriously jumpy, and that's only going to get worse as pressure is exerted from renewables. That's what no one seems to get.
No businessman likes that kind of uncertainty, especially given that utilities are always running with high debt levels because of the capital intensity of the business. Meantime, continued efficiency improvements and wider adoption leading to lowered per-unit costs will continue to exert relentless downward pressure on the price of generation by wind, and possibly solar. Wind is going to be "dispatchable", too much is at stake for that not to happen, and all of the technology you need to make it so is already in existence, and large companies with very deep pockets like GE are working hard on it. Given this, it's pretty easy to project a "tipping point", where the only rational decision for a utility when looking to put in new capacity is to put in a relatively reliable - from a cost standpoint - renewable installation backed by a fossil fuel plant who's generation cost will be far more variable as it will depend on where in the cycle the price of that fossil fuel is. If wind turbines are already storing their output, then these plants will only be used in periods of high demand: heat waves or cold snaps.
Projections are linear. Markets aren't.

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I very much want to hear from those at DU who repeatedly claim that this profile is wrong. Buzz Clik May 2013 #1
Renewables Jesus has the answer. wtmusic May 2013 #2
This study of predictions shows your sources are the least reliable of all available. kristopher May 2013 #4
Excellent rebuttal, as usual. Stay after them. nt ladjf May 2013 #18
The Original Post Reality Check Wilms May 2013 #3
You forgot the EIA wtmusic May 2013 #5
See article in post 4 kristopher May 2013 #6
Nah. I posted a comment about "their" data, too Wilms May 2013 #7
What's your point? wtmusic May 2013 #9
Written by the president of an "alternative energy" company who stands to profit immensely wtmusic May 2013 #8
Really now. Is a photo of fat Rex Tillerson supposed to prove something? wtmusic May 2013 #11
First off, that isn't Tillerson. Wilms May 2013 #13
Apology accepted. wtmusic May 2013 #15
I will admit that I haven't read the article. Archaic May 2013 #10
The graph forecasts a drop in coal use (by percentage) wtmusic May 2013 #12
I sure hope somebody comes up with a very stronge CCS program. Archaic May 2013 #22
Read it, and will await the 2nd article Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #14
Wind is the fastest growing in terms of percentage. It's insignificant, before and after. wtmusic May 2013 #16
See below. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #17
2012: 100GW total global PV -- By 2018 Additional 220GW only rooftop to be added kristopher May 2013 #19
I'm aware of that, but am skeptical. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #20
Solar HAS come down to a level where it is competitive kristopher May 2013 #21
A number of 100mw to 300mw solar pv plants will be built over the next 18 months- in the US. FogerRox May 2013 #27
Wind is "cheap" because of the production tax credit wtmusic May 2013 #23
As regards CO2, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #24
No, not terrible. Natgas generates about 60% as much CO2 as coal wtmusic May 2013 #25
I think people deliberately spreading known misinformation like this should be banned from EE kristopher May 2013 #26
Are utilities required to buy the cheapest power? FogerRox May 2013 #28
No, that is when they turn of fossil fuels and use wind instead. kristopher May 2013 #29
Interesting, but you do realize, I hope, that a backup is always going to be necessary. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #31
Your meaning isn't clear, but I think the IEEE article is. kristopher May 2013 #32
Neither agree nor disagree Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #30
You seem to be studiously avoiding the subject of the production tax credit wtmusic May 2013 #33
Not sure where you're coming from, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #34
Ah, the credit is only temporary. wtmusic May 2013 #35
...and it will never store more energy ever in all eternity, right? Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #36
We don't have all eternity. wtmusic May 2013 #37
Risk management Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #38
Based on your analogy, you would support an immediate evacuation of Wyoming. wtmusic May 2013 #39
You're not getting it Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #41
Renewables do nothing about fossil fuel usage 4dsc May 2013 #40
See below Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #42
But on the other hand... GliderGuider May 2013 #43
I see your hand and raise you... Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #44
A dropping % indicates a linear rise in concentration... GliderGuider May 2013 #45
True, but as I tried to point out, that's the dog that's not barking Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #47
China took in our washing - that took care of part of it. nt GliderGuider May 2013 #48
Maybe the linear CO2 concentration growth trend is coincidental? Socialistlemur May 2013 #49
Plants are known to grow better at greater CO2 concentrations, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #50
After further review CO2 increase is constrained by ocean Socialistlemur May 2013 #52
I've been wanting to test whether the seasonal variability is in fact increasing, Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #59
In PPM terms there is a slight uptrend in variability Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #60
Renewables are not a substitute for oil 4dsc May 2013 #51
Same thing: as oil supplies dwindle prices increase..renewables kick in Socialistlemur May 2013 #53
You miss the whole point 4dsc May 2013 #54
You would have to show why solar wont do the job eventually Socialistlemur May 2013 #55
There's this little problem about nighttime, and when the wind dies. wtmusic May 2013 #56
I think you mean the wind power industry? Socialistlemur May 2013 #57
Natural gas peaking plants fill in the gaps when solar and wind aren't working wtmusic May 2013 #58
My energy utility blew up an adjacent neighborhood about 2 years ago CreekDog May 2013 #46
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