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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales [View all]ellisonz
(27,776 posts)29. I think they should impinge more.
Where do you get your information about guns in society? The NRA? Soldier of Fortune magazine?
Why do you think repeating "do you know what a 4473 is and what is on it?" makes you seem wise in the internet era. I can figure that out in less than 2 minutes.
A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that must be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).
The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS.
The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.
If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states require individual sellers to sell through dealers.
These forms are given the same status as a tax return under the Privacy Act of 1974 and cannot be disclosed by the government to private parties or other government officials except in accordance with the Privacy Act. Individual dealers possessing a copy of the form are not subject to the Privacy Act's restrictions on disclosure. Dealers are required to maintain completed forms for 20 years in the case of completed sales and 5 years where the sale was denied by the NICS check coming back disapproved or other disqualifying information.
There is a part I to form 4473 which is seen by persons who buy guns and which they sign. They sign that they have read form 4473 on pain of perjury and criminal punishment for lying. Yet there is a Part II which is sort of a secret for the ATF. It cannot be downloaded from the ATF. One has to approach the ATF specially to get a Part II.[1] Part II is for "making a disposition of a firearm to a nonlicensee who is purchasing or otherwise acquiring a firearm by other than an over-the-counter transaction and who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located."[2]
Contents
In response to the Government Paperwork Elimination Act (GPEA), Public L. No 105-277, signed in 1999, and based upon requests from the firearms industry, the ATF has developed the e-Form 4473 to assist in the proper completion of the Federal Firearms Transaction Record (ATF Form 4473). The ATF eForm 4473 is designed to help eliminate errors in completing Form 4473 for both the firearm purchaser and the Federal Firearms License (FFL) holding seller. The eForm 4473 is provided to the public, including major retailers, free of charge via the ATF eForm web site. ATF eForm 4473 is a downloadable application that runs locally on the FFL's computer and supports both Windows and Mac OS X operating systems. (see "External links" section below)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that must be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).
The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS.
The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.
If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states require individual sellers to sell through dealers.
These forms are given the same status as a tax return under the Privacy Act of 1974 and cannot be disclosed by the government to private parties or other government officials except in accordance with the Privacy Act. Individual dealers possessing a copy of the form are not subject to the Privacy Act's restrictions on disclosure. Dealers are required to maintain completed forms for 20 years in the case of completed sales and 5 years where the sale was denied by the NICS check coming back disapproved or other disqualifying information.
There is a part I to form 4473 which is seen by persons who buy guns and which they sign. They sign that they have read form 4473 on pain of perjury and criminal punishment for lying. Yet there is a Part II which is sort of a secret for the ATF. It cannot be downloaded from the ATF. One has to approach the ATF specially to get a Part II.[1] Part II is for "making a disposition of a firearm to a nonlicensee who is purchasing or otherwise acquiring a firearm by other than an over-the-counter transaction and who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located."[2]
Contents
In response to the Government Paperwork Elimination Act (GPEA), Public L. No 105-277, signed in 1999, and based upon requests from the firearms industry, the ATF has developed the e-Form 4473 to assist in the proper completion of the Federal Firearms Transaction Record (ATF Form 4473). The ATF eForm 4473 is designed to help eliminate errors in completing Form 4473 for both the firearm purchaser and the Federal Firearms License (FFL) holding seller. The eForm 4473 is provided to the public, including major retailers, free of charge via the ATF eForm web site. ATF eForm 4473 is a downloadable application that runs locally on the FFL's computer and supports both Windows and Mac OS X operating systems. (see "External links" section below)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdXWYRexO20cAnxxXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=form%204473&fr2=tab-web&fr=yfp-t-701
Why is it that the Gungeon can't/won't answer any of my questions, but I can answer yours?
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Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales [View all]
ellisonz
Dec 2011
OP
Gun control advocates honest? Like the "assault rifle" that wasn't an assault rifle?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#2
"Why should firearms be oh so special?" - Uhm, becuase they are SPECIFICALLY mentioned as a Right
cleanhippie
Dec 2011
#94
You can try to argue that nonsense if you want, but you asked a question, and now you know WHY...
cleanhippie
Dec 2011
#165
OMG! You are actually quoting a 1999 article that uses Michael Bellisles as the "expert"!
DonP
Dec 2011
#181
Normally ignorance is a curable condition, but in your case it appears to be hopeless
DonP
Dec 2011
#185
Nobody reasonably expects a criminologist to be an expert on emergency medicine.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#199
Like in Kelo v. New London, where property was taken for corporate enrichment? It feels good.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#383
I wish to view the right to bear arms as connected with *official* militia service.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#388
So, you bought a gun with no backgorund check then, interesting for a control supporter
DonP
Dec 2011
#24
You do know that violence in the US is at a 35 year low, right? Your friend nonwithstanding.
DonP
Dec 2011
#58
So, based on your approach, as a man I should be able to dictate abortion law, right?
DonP
Dec 2011
#63
In real life, knife robberies are more violent, and produce more injuries.
GreenStormCloud
Dec 2011
#125
"Why are firearms so special?" Because your right to them is a Constitutional right.
SteveW
Dec 2011
#390
And there is your problem-you don't know the actual laws, only what others have told you about them.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#18
You're the one that wants changes- so explain those you deem necessary.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#22
That's interesting, but rifles of all sorts are used in less than 3% of crimes.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#30
I believe you are less concerned with preventing gun crime and more in preventing gun ownership.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#55
"extended magazine clips".... You are parroting fear-mongering buzz words.....
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#80
Under the expired assault weapons ban high capacity magazines were never banned...
spin
Dec 2011
#92
You do realize that if the 1994 AWB had been reauthorized it would not have prevented Loughner...
aikoaiko
Dec 2011
#87
I'm sure you must mean; "In light of the rapidly shrinking violence in this country" right?
DonP
Dec 2011
#111
In other words: There is no evidence that more gun control reduces crime. n/t
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#265
Sure there is and that's why it's such a popular thing for politicians to support
DonP
Dec 2011
#284
And ammonium nitrate has been pretty damn well controlled as of late in this country...
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#43
Really? Then name one of those Texas or Arizona stores that provide
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#360
And using that logic... "Do you know Michael Bloomberg's background?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#49
I will not allow myself to be restricted when I have not commited a crime or harmed anyone.
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#260
What is descriptive and enlightening is the fact that the US has by far the highest gun homicide...
DanTex
Dec 2011
#110
I doubt they were. Bloomberg's "stings" rarely, if ever, result in prosecutable cases.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#154
Which just goes to show current laws aren't effective at stopping many people...
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#39
That's as much as admitting that gun laws don't drive the crime rate.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#50
Now you claim that availability of grenades (illegal) equals availability of guns (legal).
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#85
Trying to shift the blame to someone who had no legal or moral responsibility.
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#140
Those are more than a little vague- care to elaborate about "regular inspection", for instance?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#217
It's not up to you to decide whether a post is germane to a subject.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#277
They'll just notify law enforcement and have the hospital security hold you until then.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#337
That doesn't answer the question. How would you ensure your "better" laws get enforced?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#222
But the "failed system" has once again had a reduction in violent crime.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#296
"Gun control and and better policing" The first of which you claimed was a "failed system"?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#298
Indeed, it has failed to prevent more people from buying more guns.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#339
I think we'll start seeing a flat line and it certainly won't approach European levels.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#342
Is there some Department of Scientific Disarmament Instruction where we might find these?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#347
I've yet to quote the NRA or Eugene Volokh in my responses to you...
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#361
What do you tell the victims of drunk drivers? Obviously our alcohol licensing laws are inadequate
hack89
Dec 2011
#91
Actually only 51. And that is less than one in a million. That's rare.
GreenStormCloud
Dec 2011
#189
"If they're willing to sell to someone like that they're willing to make an illegal deal."
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#83