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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales [View all]ellisonz
(27,776 posts)170. I think that could be taken to mean a couple clear things...
The foremost being that you only really need a few weapons to be equipped otherwise you could be out to cause trouble and that would be directly counter to a Militia's task of protecting the community from external threats such as bandits, Indians, and other threats where there was no need for a Militia, there was no need to equip.
Arms and the man
Americas love affair with the gun is the eternal stuff of fiction. It has not always been the stuff of fact*
Jul 1st 1999 | washington, dc | from the print edition
RICHARD HENRY LEE, one of the signers of Americas Declaration of Independence, wrote that to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. This association between guns and liberty seems hard-wired into the American consciousness. It has produced a country with more guns than people. It has made national heroes of the armed frontiersman, the cowboy and Teddy Roosevelt, the president who carried a big stick and a hunting rifle. Above all it has engendered such a powerful cult of the gun that whether you glorify it, fear it or accept it as a necessary evil, hardly anyone questions its basis in fact. Have guns really been an essential part of American life for 400 years?
At first glance it seems absurd to doubt it. From the time of the earliest settlement on the James river, the English colonies required every freeman to own a gun for self-defence. More than a century and a half later, the notion of the citizen-soldier was enshrined in the constitution. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed, holds the second amendment of the Bill of Rights, which establishes additional safeguards for Americans freedom.
Yet in ordinary life people were not armed to the teeth a couple of centuries ago. Wills from revolutionary times present a different picture. Probate records that list the belongings passed on to heirs often give valuable insights into everyday activities and possessions. Michael Bellesiles, a professor at Emory University in Atlanta, has trawled through more than 1,000 probate records dating from between 1765 and 1850**. Here is a typical finding: He takes note of his favourite chocolate pot [says Mr Bellesiles]. The record notes broken bottles, bent spoons. It notes every scrap of land and every debt and credit he holds. Theres not a single gun listed. And this is the commander of the Virginia militia. Between 1765 and 1790, fewer than 15% of probate inventories list guns of any kind (see chart 1), and more than half of those listed were broken***. The larger-than-average proportion in the South was probably due to difficulties in persuading people to be slaves by peaceful means.
Related topics
Official surveys of private-gun ownership show much the same thing. (Amazingly, to modern sensibilities, state and federal governments were able to undertake surveys of this sort without any debate in state legislatures about their right to do so.) The state of Massachusetts counted all privately owned guns on several occasions. Until 1840, at any rate, no more than 11% of the population owned gunsand Massachusetts was one of the two centres of gun production in the country****. At the start of the war of 1812, the state had more spears than firearms in its arsenal. What was true at the state level was true nationwide. It would appear, says Mr Bellesiles, that at no time prior to 1850 did more than a tenth of the people own guns.
http://www.economist.com/node/218080
Americas love affair with the gun is the eternal stuff of fiction. It has not always been the stuff of fact*
Jul 1st 1999 | washington, dc | from the print edition
RICHARD HENRY LEE, one of the signers of Americas Declaration of Independence, wrote that to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. This association between guns and liberty seems hard-wired into the American consciousness. It has produced a country with more guns than people. It has made national heroes of the armed frontiersman, the cowboy and Teddy Roosevelt, the president who carried a big stick and a hunting rifle. Above all it has engendered such a powerful cult of the gun that whether you glorify it, fear it or accept it as a necessary evil, hardly anyone questions its basis in fact. Have guns really been an essential part of American life for 400 years?
At first glance it seems absurd to doubt it. From the time of the earliest settlement on the James river, the English colonies required every freeman to own a gun for self-defence. More than a century and a half later, the notion of the citizen-soldier was enshrined in the constitution. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed, holds the second amendment of the Bill of Rights, which establishes additional safeguards for Americans freedom.
Yet in ordinary life people were not armed to the teeth a couple of centuries ago. Wills from revolutionary times present a different picture. Probate records that list the belongings passed on to heirs often give valuable insights into everyday activities and possessions. Michael Bellesiles, a professor at Emory University in Atlanta, has trawled through more than 1,000 probate records dating from between 1765 and 1850**. Here is a typical finding: He takes note of his favourite chocolate pot [says Mr Bellesiles]. The record notes broken bottles, bent spoons. It notes every scrap of land and every debt and credit he holds. Theres not a single gun listed. And this is the commander of the Virginia militia. Between 1765 and 1790, fewer than 15% of probate inventories list guns of any kind (see chart 1), and more than half of those listed were broken***. The larger-than-average proportion in the South was probably due to difficulties in persuading people to be slaves by peaceful means.
Related topics
Official surveys of private-gun ownership show much the same thing. (Amazingly, to modern sensibilities, state and federal governments were able to undertake surveys of this sort without any debate in state legislatures about their right to do so.) The state of Massachusetts counted all privately owned guns on several occasions. Until 1840, at any rate, no more than 11% of the population owned gunsand Massachusetts was one of the two centres of gun production in the country****. At the start of the war of 1812, the state had more spears than firearms in its arsenal. What was true at the state level was true nationwide. It would appear, says Mr Bellesiles, that at no time prior to 1850 did more than a tenth of the people own guns.
http://www.economist.com/node/218080
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Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales [View all]
ellisonz
Dec 2011
OP
Gun control advocates honest? Like the "assault rifle" that wasn't an assault rifle?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#2
"Why should firearms be oh so special?" - Uhm, becuase they are SPECIFICALLY mentioned as a Right
cleanhippie
Dec 2011
#94
You can try to argue that nonsense if you want, but you asked a question, and now you know WHY...
cleanhippie
Dec 2011
#165
OMG! You are actually quoting a 1999 article that uses Michael Bellisles as the "expert"!
DonP
Dec 2011
#181
Normally ignorance is a curable condition, but in your case it appears to be hopeless
DonP
Dec 2011
#185
Nobody reasonably expects a criminologist to be an expert on emergency medicine.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#199
Like in Kelo v. New London, where property was taken for corporate enrichment? It feels good.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#383
I wish to view the right to bear arms as connected with *official* militia service.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#388
So, you bought a gun with no backgorund check then, interesting for a control supporter
DonP
Dec 2011
#24
You do know that violence in the US is at a 35 year low, right? Your friend nonwithstanding.
DonP
Dec 2011
#58
So, based on your approach, as a man I should be able to dictate abortion law, right?
DonP
Dec 2011
#63
In real life, knife robberies are more violent, and produce more injuries.
GreenStormCloud
Dec 2011
#125
"Why are firearms so special?" Because your right to them is a Constitutional right.
SteveW
Dec 2011
#390
And there is your problem-you don't know the actual laws, only what others have told you about them.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#18
You're the one that wants changes- so explain those you deem necessary.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#22
That's interesting, but rifles of all sorts are used in less than 3% of crimes.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#30
I believe you are less concerned with preventing gun crime and more in preventing gun ownership.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#55
"extended magazine clips".... You are parroting fear-mongering buzz words.....
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#80
Under the expired assault weapons ban high capacity magazines were never banned...
spin
Dec 2011
#92
You do realize that if the 1994 AWB had been reauthorized it would not have prevented Loughner...
aikoaiko
Dec 2011
#87
I'm sure you must mean; "In light of the rapidly shrinking violence in this country" right?
DonP
Dec 2011
#111
In other words: There is no evidence that more gun control reduces crime. n/t
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#265
Sure there is and that's why it's such a popular thing for politicians to support
DonP
Dec 2011
#284
And ammonium nitrate has been pretty damn well controlled as of late in this country...
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#43
Really? Then name one of those Texas or Arizona stores that provide
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#360
And using that logic... "Do you know Michael Bloomberg's background?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#49
I will not allow myself to be restricted when I have not commited a crime or harmed anyone.
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#260
What is descriptive and enlightening is the fact that the US has by far the highest gun homicide...
DanTex
Dec 2011
#110
I doubt they were. Bloomberg's "stings" rarely, if ever, result in prosecutable cases.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#154
Which just goes to show current laws aren't effective at stopping many people...
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#39
That's as much as admitting that gun laws don't drive the crime rate.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#50
Now you claim that availability of grenades (illegal) equals availability of guns (legal).
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#85
Trying to shift the blame to someone who had no legal or moral responsibility.
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#140
Those are more than a little vague- care to elaborate about "regular inspection", for instance?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#217
It's not up to you to decide whether a post is germane to a subject.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#277
They'll just notify law enforcement and have the hospital security hold you until then.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#337
That doesn't answer the question. How would you ensure your "better" laws get enforced?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#222
But the "failed system" has once again had a reduction in violent crime.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#296
"Gun control and and better policing" The first of which you claimed was a "failed system"?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#298
Indeed, it has failed to prevent more people from buying more guns.
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#339
I think we'll start seeing a flat line and it certainly won't approach European levels.
ellisonz
Dec 2011
#342
Is there some Department of Scientific Disarmament Instruction where we might find these?
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#347
I've yet to quote the NRA or Eugene Volokh in my responses to you...
friendly_iconoclast
Dec 2011
#361
What do you tell the victims of drunk drivers? Obviously our alcohol licensing laws are inadequate
hack89
Dec 2011
#91
Actually only 51. And that is less than one in a million. That's rare.
GreenStormCloud
Dec 2011
#189
"If they're willing to sell to someone like that they're willing to make an illegal deal."
PavePusher
Dec 2011
#83