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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
157. As a Yankee who lived as a teenager in the pre-1960s South, I understand the suffering of
Fri Apr 4, 2014, 05:51 PM
Apr 2014

and horrible legacy of African-Americans in the US.

But the experiences at the roots of jazz are not just understandable and do not just reflect the conditions and sorrows of slavery, segregation and the Black experience in America. Others have suffered too and feel that jazz expresses the depth of their emotions.

Have you thought about the Irish? Has any people suffered at the hands of "the man" more than the Irish?

Conquered, killed in war, sent to the West Indies as slaves, left to die, starved.
Their land taken. Their means of growing food taken.

The title of King of Ireland was re-created in 1542 by Henry VIII, then King of England, of the Tudor dynasty. English rule of law was reinforced and expanded in Ireland during the latter part of the 16th century, leading to the Tudor conquest of Ireland. A near complete conquest was achieved by the turn of the 17th century, following the Nine Years' War and the Flight of the Earls.

This control was further consolidated during the wars and conflicts of the 17th century, which witnessed English and Scottish colonisation in the Plantations of Ireland, the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and the Williamite War. Irish losses during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (which, in Ireland, included the Irish Confederacy and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland) are estimated to include 20,000 battlefield casualties. 200,000 civilians are estimated to have died as a result of a combination of war-related famine, displacement, guerilla activity and pestilence over the duration of the war. A further 50,000[Note 1] were sent to slavery in the West Indies. Some historians estimate that as much as half of the pre-war population of Ireland may have died as a result of the conflict.[51]

. . . .

An extraordinary climatic shock known as the "Great Frost" struck Ireland and the rest of Europe between December 1739 and September 1741, after a decade of relatively mild winters. The winters destroyed stored crops of potatoes and other staples and the poor summers severely damaged harvests.[53] This resulted in the famine of 1740. An estimated 250,000 people (about one in eight of the population) died from the ensuing pestilence and disease.[54] The Irish government halted export of corn and kept the army in quarters but did little more.[54][55] Local gentry and charitable organisations provided relief but could do little to prevent the ensuing mortality.[54][55]

. . . .

The Great Famine of the 1840s caused the deaths of one million Irish people and over a million more emigrated to escape it.[62] By the end of the decade, half of all immigration to the United States was from Ireland. The period of civil unrest that followed until the end of the 19th century is referred to as the Land War. Mass emigration became deeply entrenched and the population continued to decline until the mid-20th century. Immediately prior to the famine the population was recorded as 8.2 million by the 1841 census.[63] The population has never returned to this level since.[64] The population continued to fall until 1961 and it was not until the 2006 census that the last county of Ireland (County Leitrim) to record a rise in population since 1841 did so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

You understand that Ireland's great problem was that it was owned by the English who sucked out its innards for their use. When I lived in England some years ago, one of the worst insults was to call a person "Irish." That label was mostly applied to the alcoholics on the streets.

Of course, after the Great Famine of the 1840s, many Irish people emigrated to America. The Irish immigrants also left us a mournful, beautiful musical legacy. Music that expresses the simple joys but also the pain of life. It's no wonder if you read their story.

Remember how they were drafted into the US military to fight for the Union in the Civil War?

On March 3rd, 1863, Congress passed the Enrollment Act which required single men age 20 to 45 and married men up to age 35 to register for the draft. This act angered many whites, mainly Irish, who then living in northern states as immigrants signed as U.S. citizens were now expected to fight for the new nation, not realizing it too made the immigrants liable for the draft. It also add fuel to the fire when blacks, mostly freed slaves, were excluded from the draft and the Irish feared that freed slaves would migrate to the North and add further competition to the labor market. Many Irish saw this as a "rich man's war and a poor man's fight" since the policies of substitution and commutation were controversial practices that allowed drafted citizens to opt out of service by either furnishing a suitable substitute to take the place of the drafted, or paying $300. Both of these provisions were created with the intention of softening the effect of the draft on pacifists, the anti-draft movement, and the propertied classes. The result however was general public resentment of both policies.

A few days after the Enrollment Act was passed, in March 6, 1863, the Detroit Race Riot of 1863 erupted in Detroit, Michigan, as Irish rioted for days over the draft as well as targeting against the blacks. Although not as destructive, the fear was about to come 4 months later. In July 13-16, as the first draft were to be held in New York City, the Irish then launched the 1863 New York City draft riots. Stores were looted and newspaper buildings that supported the Union were ransacked and burned to the ground. The rioters then targeted blacks as many saw the American Civil War as a war to free the slaves and blamed them for the draft as well as the war. Many blacks were caught by the mob, stabbed, and lynched as a result. When the draft riots started, the New York State Militia was absent because they were sent to assist Union troops in Pennsylvania, thus leaving the New York City Police Department the only force to put down the riot.

The police were unable to handle a crowd that has 10x more population than that and the rioting continued on and on. Two days later, word came to announced that the draft had been suspended. Federal troops returning from the Battle of Gettysburg were sent to the city to quell down the riot and peace was finally restored in the streets of New York City over a day later. Over 121 people died in the draft riots in New York City. The 1863 New York City Draft riots were the largest civil insurrection in American history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans_in_the_American_Civil_War

Irish casualties in the Civil War

Killed and Died of Wounds
63rd New York Infantry 156
69th New York Infantry 259
88th New York Infantry 151
28th Massachusetts Infantry 250
116th Pennsylvania Infantry 145
Total (during the war) 961
The Irish Brigade lost over 4,000 men in killed and wounded; it being more men than ever belonged to the brigade at any one time. With the exception of the Twenty-eighth Massachusetts, the regiments were small. At the start they were not recruited to the maximum, but left New York with about 800 men each. The three New York regiments became so reduced in numbers that, at Gettysburg, they were consolidated into two companies each; the One Hundred and Sixteenth Pennsylvania had been consolidated into four companies.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/the-irish-in-the-american-civil-war-150000-in-union-army-25000-in-confederate-119724549-238079561.html

And I don't need to mention the Jews who were persecuted for centuries in Europe and then imprisoned and massacred by the NAZIs.

So lots of people have reason to understand and feel the roots of jazz. I majored in music as an undergrad and was interested in music composition. By nature, I am a very happy person, I think. But when, in my 20s, I sat down to improvise at the piano, all of my tunes were so sad. I wondered why. It has occurred to me that the pain and sorrow and injustices that our ancestors experienced are born within us. Maybe it is in our genetic fabric.

So -- the roots -- the suffering, the slavery, the lost homes -- those are the legacies of many Americans, not just African-Americans.

By the way, I would define a racist as someone who is overly conscious of race, someone who views life through the prism of race.

If a person wants to build a racial or religious ghetto for himself, that is his or her choice. But that person should not accuse those who try to reach across to people of other races as being racist.

The Civil Rights Movement was fought for racial equality and integration. Martin Luther King fought for integration and inclusion. People who separate themselves from others by race are willfully refusing to live King's dream.

Recommendations

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Here is some irony for you angstlessk Apr 2014 #1
Bravo, 1SBM. sheshe2 Apr 2014 #2
The only question I have about what you write is a technical, definitional one. Jackpine Radical Apr 2014 #3
In college Springslips Apr 2014 #5
Thank you. Jackpine Radical Apr 2014 #8
growing up a zillion years ago, we were taught that roguevalley Apr 2014 #22
Bigotry is just is repugnant as racism ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #24
I can't agree with that. Bigotry against LGBT affects entire classes of people, not Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #176
Here, too, ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #186
It's important to understand the difference between "racism" and "predjudice" as discussed in the OP Maedhros Apr 2014 #44
+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #83
it was never meant to make sense noiretextatique Apr 2014 #205
No argument here. [n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #206
However ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #20
That's what I learned as well. TBF Apr 2014 #143
Check out the discussion in this thread MrScorpio Apr 2014 #7
Yes, thanks. Jackpine Radical Apr 2014 #9
Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #19
AA School Principal who Harasses and Fires a White Subordinate.... Smarmie Doofus Apr 2014 #72
Racial Bigotry. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #98
No its RACISM! Anansi1171 Apr 2014 #189
No it's bigotry. The system did not back him up. bravenak Apr 2014 #191
Okay, but where is that alternate universe where ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #194
Please explain the difference: Smarmie Doofus Apr 2014 #201
Institutional control is much, much broader ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #204
She may have been affected by the RW noise machine. xfundy Apr 2014 #4
Umm... gcomeau Apr 2014 #6
Think about this: MrScorpio Apr 2014 #12
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #57
I'm sorry... gcomeau Apr 2014 #76
Well, let me ask you this… MrScorpio Apr 2014 #78
Ok... gcomeau Apr 2014 #108
What makes the dictionary the ultimate authority on what the word racism means? Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #110
Sociologists may define it so... gcomeau Apr 2014 #111
Black people can't be racist until they have the power to be racist Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #112
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #123
Has it never occurred to folks ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #147
Being racist requires no power. Only a belief. gcomeau Apr 2014 #158
individual racists are not the issue noiretextatique Apr 2014 #208
Says who exactly? gcomeau Apr 2014 #213
You are all argument and not all ears ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #216
Uh-huh... gcomeau Apr 2014 #218
Funny how "progressive" are all about being progressive ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #220
Think through that again. gcomeau Apr 2014 #221
Please think through what I wrote a first time ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #222
Yes, it is you. gcomeau Apr 2014 #223
Okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #224
Yeah, that's a devastating rebuttal right there. -eom gcomeau Apr 2014 #225
Well just remember JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #226
Not trying to present a devastating rebuttal ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #227
And you clearly just don't read.... gcomeau Apr 2014 #230
Okay. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #231
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #120
I am not changing the meaning of words, this is not a new concept Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #121
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #122
Usage of words change all the time. It's not a matter of authority. M0rpheus Apr 2014 #125
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Because it affects me... daily. M0rpheus Apr 2014 #128
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #130
Compelling arguments. Bravo. Curmudgeoness Apr 2014 #10
"... blacks cannot be racist." greiner3 Apr 2014 #13
But "racist" does not equal bigotry ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #43
1SBM is considering the term "racism" in a much more sociological rather than colloquial sense. Maedhros Apr 2014 #46
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #50
No ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #55
It's tough to get your head around the first few times you Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #101
Yet ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #102
Indeed Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #106
it is beyond not buying it noiretextatique Apr 2014 #209
True ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #210
pretty much noiretextatique Apr 2014 #211
The majority of sociologists are white Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #56
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #63
Welcome back! Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #64
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No, I suspect you will soon find out that bigots are not welcome Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #66
Wow! What did I miss? eom. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #103
You missed one of the most hateful posts I have seen on this site Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #107
Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #114
He only made it to two Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #115
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #54
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #59
No, actually it does. gcomeau Apr 2014 #77
NO, IT ISN'T ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #82
No they do not. gcomeau Apr 2014 #105
Could one ask for a better example of what I ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #113
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #116
Really? ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #138
For cripes sake... gcomeau Apr 2014 #159
I since frustration ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #181
I already understand just fine thank you. gcomeau Apr 2014 #214
See ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #215
Then by all means... gcomeau Apr 2014 #219
My father in law said something a few years ago that might connect here ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #11
That is put bery well, in my experience. pangaia Apr 2014 #15
It wasn't my daughters fieind that finds my racist ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #25
Default Setting JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #91
BRAVO MY BROTHER!! rury Apr 2014 #14
That's some heavy shit, but I truly understand. Thanks. AAO Apr 2014 #16
Ask your daughter's friend zentrum Apr 2014 #17
She would have never given it a thought ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #26
Oh hell, I can't imagine that Scootaloo Apr 2014 #80
Yeah, I know ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #81
Of course blacks can be racist; have you ever listened to Farrakhan talk about "white devils"? 7962 Apr 2014 #18
Does The Minister Farrakhan's discussions of "white devils" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #29
There are plenty of examples of blacks in power doing the same thing that whites have done, 7962 Apr 2014 #35
there is no system privileging blacks over whites. racism is not just bigotry La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2014 #40
Name one of these plenty examples ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #42
You do realize that White people are no longer in the majority in California, don't you? JDPriestly Apr 2014 #60
Well said. 7962 Apr 2014 #68
Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #69
The power and reinforcing structure in Los Angeles. Here are the city council members and their JDPriestly Apr 2014 #167
I also lived in Los Angeles for many years, and it is not the racial utopia you make it out to be. kwassa Apr 2014 #212
I wasn't going to say anything; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #217
What do you want us to do? M0rpheus Apr 2014 #73
Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #109
Here's one for you from just last year: 7962 Apr 2014 #67
Thom Hartmann discussed the difference between "racism" and "predjudice" on his radio show, Maedhros Apr 2014 #47
Most of the music in my house -- CDs, sheet music -- is old time country music OldRedneck Apr 2014 #21
I'm sorry ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #31
Jazz does move me. Does that mean I am biased toward African-Americans? JDPriestly Apr 2014 #61
Ahhh, common ground ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #70
As a Yankee who lived as a teenager in the pre-1960s South, I understand the suffering of JDPriestly Apr 2014 #157
Only Patsy Cline and Loretta Lynn. bravenak Apr 2014 #39
Patsy transcends color lines Laughing Mirror Apr 2014 #118
I love her too much. bravenak Apr 2014 #192
That reminds me, Leadbelly was a big Gene Autry fan BeyondGeography Apr 2014 #154
Thank you for putting your discussion out here. NBachers Apr 2014 #27
everyone is "racist" alc Apr 2014 #28
no, the word has a very definite meaning. it's a system that privileges one race over another La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2014 #38
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #45
I guess my question to you would be: why is it important to erase the distinction? Maedhros Apr 2014 #53
If you think you can understand a complex social issue by reading the dictionary you are mistaken Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #62
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #129
I'll rephrase my question from a few posts up and direct it to you: Maedhros Apr 2014 #132
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #135
The distinction has been made by a great number of people, not just me. Maedhros Apr 2014 #136
it has multiple meanings Enrique Apr 2014 #153
Lost its meaning to whom? ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #48
The word institution is not in the definition of racism... Blanks Apr 2014 #88
Wow gollygee Apr 2014 #30
I know ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #33
And on that I'm with you 100%! 7962 Apr 2014 #36
"Whitesplaining" [n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #99
A lot of people think that simply going to Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2014 #104
I'm sorry that happened to you. nt AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #32
I'm not ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #34
you were far more patient than i would have been. nt La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2014 #37
Honestly ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #49
ahh. i see. i am glad you tried to explain systematic oppressions vs individual bigotry La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2014 #58
You did good. bravenak Apr 2014 #41
So woule you consider a person who described himself as follows a white racist: JDPriestly Apr 2014 #51
I'd slightly disagree with the "can't be racist" JoeyT Apr 2014 #52
Without the power, it's bigotry. jeff47 Apr 2014 #71
...do not define myself, or my condition, relative to white folks...no reason to talk them down.. freshwest Apr 2014 #74
I go away for a few hours... MrScorpio Apr 2014 #75
Ok, that's just, well...pathetic! And your visitor was....ummmm, what's the word? Racist!!!! MADem Apr 2014 #79
Substitute "white" for "black" and vice versa throughout your OP... Not Sure Apr 2014 #84
Would anyone else like to point out the inherent problems with this post? MrScorpio Apr 2014 #85
Oh dear JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #93
Bjorn Against did a dynamite job, I gotta say MrScorpio Apr 2014 #94
Sure did! JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #97
Here is the difference between uplifting the black community and uplifting the white community Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #86
+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #90
+2 MrScorpio Apr 2014 #100
Knocked it out of the park! M0rpheus Apr 2014 #119
Amazing post!! I had to take a break from this place and am just seeing this post Number23 Apr 2014 #239
I hope heaven05 Apr 2014 #87
Again ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #92
They can't "see" it heaven JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #95
I'm just laughing at some of the responses to this thread JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #89
I for one LOVE when white liberals get self righteous and judgmental IronLionZion Apr 2014 #96
what a great conversation! BlancheSplanchnik Apr 2014 #117
Applicable quote Lamonte Apr 2014 #124
How is that applicable to this discussion? eom. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #141
Wtf did that even mean? bravenak Apr 2014 #195
I have no clue ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #197
That's a strange question for a visitor to ask... Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #127
Actually ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #139
Ok, I understand now Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #140
Very interesting discussion The Traveler Apr 2014 #131
You are lamentably correct about much of what you post. Maedhros Apr 2014 #133
That reminds me of Mr. Scorpio's "Privilege" post of a couple weeks ago ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #144
Sometimes it IS best to shut up and listen. [n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #145
"Don't tell me to STFU!" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #149
To that person, I would say this: Maedhros Apr 2014 #150
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #156
As long as white folks JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #165
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #168
Damned if you didn't just make the point. M0rpheus Apr 2014 #170
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #171
Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #177
Nothing JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #182
He said almost the same thing you said in the "STFU" post above M0rpheus Apr 2014 #190
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #196
You can take that position The Traveler Apr 2014 #160
The more we talk about these things, the more we iron out the points of misunderstanding. Maedhros Apr 2014 #173
Actually ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #178
Agreed. Maedhros Apr 2014 #187
That would general be true ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #193
Yes!!!! The Traveler Apr 2014 #207
You can be open to new ideas and reject them Bok_Tukalo Apr 2014 #228
Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #232
If you say so. Bok_Tukalo Apr 2014 #233
There are ideas ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #234
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #137
Point taken ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #142
Hmmmm ... close The Traveler Apr 2014 #164
Most of the books on my shelves are by white people ... eppur_se_muova Apr 2014 #134
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #162
Is the blonde, blue-eyed Jesus equally sacrilegious? arcane1 Apr 2014 #166
Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #169
Or, does it reflect unconscious bias on my part ... ;) eppur_se_muova Apr 2014 #172
Wouldn't this be dependent on the particular culture/country you're living in? pnwmom Apr 2014 #146
That would be the case ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #151
So even these, assuming they're true, aren't examples of racism? pnwmom Apr 2014 #155
No, this is not "racism" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #179
Below I made the point JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #183
I think you have to consider the life experience of black Americans JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #180
I'm not very familiar with the DeBlasio situation pnwmom Apr 2014 #184
Stop and Frisk JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #188
I'm glad you joined DU! DocMac Apr 2014 #148
I despise him ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #152
I have not read this whole thread...sorry no time right now passiveporcupine Apr 2014 #161
As the OP starter ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #198
I don't think about people by their color either. passiveporcupine Apr 2014 #202
K&R BumRushDaShow Apr 2014 #163
Your spot is the kind of spot every Black child should be raised ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #199
What is cool is that one book I have is "Before the Mayflower" BumRushDaShow Apr 2014 #203
K&R stonecutter357 Apr 2014 #174
I am thinking that she is still young TNNurse Apr 2014 #175
You should JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #185
Kick! bravenak Apr 2014 #200
Nice discussion. Feral Child Apr 2014 #229
In short: MrScorpio Apr 2014 #235
I see what you mean ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #236
Good call nt MrScorpio Apr 2014 #237
Really really good point JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #238
Ahh yes, the "YES YOU CAN BE A RACIST TOO!" randys1 Apr 2014 #240
It puzzles me ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #241
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