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Atheists & Agnostics

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RegieRocker

(4,226 posts)
Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:20 PM Jul 2012

Agnostics are not Atheists and they deserve their own forum. [View all]

An Agnostic Manifesto
At least we know what we don't know.

Let's get one thing straight: Agnosticism is not some kind of weak-tea atheism. Agnosticism is not atheism or theism. It is radical skepticism, doubt in the possibility of certainty, opposition to the unwarranted certainties that atheism and theism offer.

Agnostics have mostly been depicted as doubters of religious belief, but recently, with the rise of the "New Atheism"—the high-profile denunciations of religion in best-sellers from scientists such as Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, and polemicists, such as my colleague Christopher Hitchens—I believe it's important to define a distinct identity for agnosticism, to hold it apart from the certitudes of both theism and atheism.
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I would not go so far as to argue that there's a "new agnosticism" on the rise. But I think it's time for a new agnosticism, one that takes on the New Atheists. Indeed agnostics see atheism as "a theism"—as much a faith-based creed as the most orthodox of the religious variety.

Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence. (And some of them can behave as intolerantly to heretics who deviate from their unproven orthodoxy as the most unbending religious Inquisitor.)

Faced with the fundamental question: "Why is there something rather than nothing?" atheists have faith that science will tell us eventually. Most seem never to consider that it may well be a philosophic, logical impossibility for something to create itself from nothing. But the question presents a fundamental mystery that has bedeviled (so to speak) philosophers and theologians from Aristotle to Aquinas. Recently scientists have tried to answer it with theories of "multiverses" and "vacuums filled with quantum potentialities," none of which strikes me as persuasive. (For a review of the centrality, and insolubility so far, of the something-from-nothing question, I recommend this podcast interview with Jim Holt, who is writing a book on the subject.)

Having recently spent two weeks in Cambridge (the one in the United Kingdom) on a Templeton-Cambridge Fellowship, being lectured to by believers and nonbelievers, I found myself feeling more than anything unconvinced by certainties on either side. And feeling the need for solidarity and identity with other doubters. Thus my call for a revivified agnosticism. Our T-shirt will read: I just don't know. (I should probably say here that I still consider myself Jewish in everything but the believing in God part, which, I'll admit, others may take exception to.)

Let me make clear that I accept most of the New Atheist's criticism of religious bad behavior over the centuries, and of theology itself. I just don't accept turning science into a new religion until it can show it has all the answers, which it hasn't, and probably never will.

Atheists have no evidence—and certainly no proof!—that science will ever solve the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Just because other difficult-seeming problems have been solved does not mean all difficult problems will always be solved. And so atheists really exist on the same superstitious plane as Thomas Aquinas, who tried to prove by logic the possibility of creation "ex nihilo" (from nothing). His eventual explanation entailed a Supreme Being standing outside of time and space somehow endowing it with existence (and interfering once in a while) without explaining what caused this source of "uncaused causation" to be created in the first place.

This is—or should be—grade-school stuff, but many of the New Atheists seemed to have stopped thinking since their early grade-school science-fair triumphs. I'm thinking in particular here of the ones who like to call themselves "the brights." (Or have they given up on that comically unfortunate term?) The "brights" seem like rather dim bulbs when it comes to this question. It's amazing how the New Atheists boastfully stride over this pons asinorum as if it weren't there.

You know about the pons asinorum, right? The so-called "bridge of asses" described by medieval scholars? Initially it referred to Euclid's Fifth Theorem, the one in which geometry really gets difficult and the sheep are separated from the asses among students, and the asses can't get across the bridge at all. Since then the phrase has been applied to any difficult theorem that the asses can't comprehend. And when it comes to the question of why is there something rather than nothing, the "New Atheists" still can't get their asses over the bridge, although many of them are too ignorant to realize that. This sort of ignorance, a condition called "anosognosia," which my friend Errol Morris is exploring in depth on his New York Times blog, means you don't know what you don't know. Or you don't know how stupid you are.

read rest here http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_spectator/2010/06/an_agnostic_manifesto.html

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On the other hand... rexcat Jul 2012 #1
Huge difference between the two RegieRocker Jul 2012 #2
Obviously you don't understand the definition of "atheist"... rexcat Jul 2012 #3
Noted RegieRocker Jul 2012 #4
Would you accept the opinion of the guy who invented the word to desctibe himself? dmallind Jul 2012 #11
Sure he is stating that Agnostics are not Atheists RegieRocker Jul 2012 #12
No - he's stating that agnosticism is in fact nothing to do with belief. Atheism is not mentioned. dmallind Jul 2012 #14
He mentioned atheists in the sentence just before your quote started muriel_volestrangler Jul 2012 #66
The issue here ais the multiple usages for "atheist" dmallind Jul 2012 #83
Only a true agnostic knows what an agnostic is. AlbertCat Jul 2012 #50
Albert Cat, perfect response to pure and utter rubbish being spread here by cowards who hide under . Brewinblue Jul 2012 #87
I'm an agnostic atheist OriginalGeek Jul 2012 #5
I believe something exists when there is evidence of that somethings existence michael811 Jul 2012 #6
This is bullshit: mr blur Jul 2012 #7
Yes, it sure is. frogmarch Jul 2012 #16
Nah it's just the ones who don't understand the meaning of the word. dmallind Jul 2012 #17
Yes, you’re right. frogmarch Jul 2012 #21
Badda bing! valerief Jul 2012 #55
You know what my favorite hobby is?... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #69
I see it as "a theism" kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #86
My suggestion to you JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #8
Just curious skepticscott Jul 2012 #9
I kind of like what it shines a light on JNelson6563 Jul 2012 #10
Great video... rexcat Jul 2012 #19
Looks like something for Meta-discussion rexcat Jul 2012 #13
No surprise to your post and some others either RegieRocker Jul 2012 #22
And what is your point? rexcat Jul 2012 #31
I say the non-religious should stick together. FiveGoodMen Jul 2012 #15
I think there has to be a 3) though dmallind Jul 2012 #18
and... rexcat Jul 2012 #20
Sure - so what's your beef with atheists again? (definitions matter - or what about blurgelpibs?) nt dmallind Jul 2012 #84
Why would I have a beef with atheists? rexcat Jul 2012 #110
I've long wanted to add "& Humanists & Freethinkers" Warpy Jul 2012 #23
I'm just exhausted by the hair-splitting over labels FiveGoodMen Jul 2012 #25
+1 million... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #70
RegieRocker, meet Starboard Tack, cbayer, and rug. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #24
Nice job 2ndAmForCoumputers! rexcat Jul 2012 #41
That one isn't banned from this forum. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #46
More than likely... rexcat Jul 2012 #48
Respect? From that one? Unlikely. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #49
You don't get to tell me what an atheist is. Iggo Jul 2012 #26
And you can't tell me what an Agnostic is.... RegieRocker Jul 2012 #27
I ain't. Iggo Jul 2012 #30
But I can state that we are not the same. RegieRocker Jul 2012 #32
Never said we were.. Iggo Jul 2012 #34
My apologies to you RegieRocker Jul 2012 #35
Accepted! Iggo Jul 2012 #37
yes you can... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #71
If you don't eat meat skepticscott Jul 2012 #28
Not at all. It's all black and white for you. RegieRocker Jul 2012 #29
I don't know any atheists who say that OriginalGeek Jul 2012 #33
Which words? skepticscott Jul 2012 #36
The only transparent lie was from Dawkins RegieRocker Jul 2012 #38
Well, you're free to make things up skepticscott Jul 2012 #47
The only transparent lie was from Dawkins AlbertCat Jul 2012 #51
No atheists I know of say that a god or gods frogmarch Jul 2012 #39
Why don't you go and play somewhere else? mr blur Jul 2012 #40
Exactly! rexcat Jul 2012 #42
I would like to add one more point... rexcat Jul 2012 #43
Maybe DU needs frogmarch Jul 2012 #44
Hi Regie and welcome! EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #45
I am not sure RegieRocker Jul 2012 #53
If you're not sure, then you lack an active belief in a god or gods EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #54
Being an atheist who's accused of being part of "just another religion" is offensive because valerief Jul 2012 #56
To not believe RegieRocker Jul 2012 #57
Well it sounds like you've got your mind made up regarding atheists EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #58
Still unable to understand RegieRocker Jul 2012 #59
This IS an agnostic safe haven EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #60
You're not sorry be real. RegieRocker Jul 2012 #61
Nope, not really EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #62
Sorry, at least half of what's in this post skepticscott Jul 2012 #63
I especially love this gem: trotsky Jul 2012 #81
Why not allow anyone open to the idea there is no God? Kennah Jul 2012 #52
Don't worry...I'm gone RegieRocker Jul 2012 #64
You're God? And you're leaving us? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Kennah Jul 2012 #65
Agnosticism is the honest position. mmonk Jul 2012 #67
Sorry, but that's not skepticscott Jul 2012 #68
Both the religious and new atheists claim certainty. mmonk Jul 2012 #76
Where you make a mistake is assuming that atheists profess certainty EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #77
I was speaking of the "new atheists" as opposed to atheists in general. mmonk Jul 2012 #88
What does the phrase "new atheists" even mean? EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #92
Not quite. Specific persons that have set out on a quest to challenge. mmonk Jul 2012 #96
Nothing in the physical world skepticscott Jul 2012 #78
First, let me wade through the insults and try to exp[lain what I'm saying. mmonk Jul 2012 #89
No, that wasn't what you were saying skepticscott Jul 2012 #93
If someone writes a book called "The God Delusion", mmonk Jul 2012 #97
In other words skepticscott Jul 2012 #104
If you quit trying to define what I'm saying mmonk Jul 2012 #108
My post was not directly related to the piece cited in the op mmonk Jul 2012 #99
Please explain the difference between "believe" and "know" dmallind Jul 2012 #85
Believe applies to both, knowing applies to neither in an honest sense. mmonk Jul 2012 #90
They also then are not answering the same question, no? dmallind Jul 2012 #94
I agree agnosticism is not a middle ground. mmonk Jul 2012 #100
And now, we can address the initial question, in a better manner than the OP. dmallind Jul 2012 #101
Tripe. ElboRuum Jul 2012 #72
Excellent post! EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2012 #73
Been lurking for some time. ElboRuum Jul 2012 #74
2 points of contention. mmonk Jul 2012 #91
No no no. It seemed you had it right for a while dmallind Jul 2012 #95
I'll accept your definition mmonk Jul 2012 #98
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. ElboRuum Jul 2012 #102
And I posit that before we knew of subatomic particles mmonk Jul 2012 #105
Actually, you are in full agreement. ElboRuum Jul 2012 #106
Excellent post. mmonk Jul 2012 #107
Proof to negate exists in the lack of proof to assert. ElboRuum Jul 2012 #103
Yep. redqueen Jul 2012 #109
Scienists know why the universe came into being Taverner Jul 2012 #75
"Why is there something rather than nothing?" "Just wait. There won't be for long." valerief Jul 2012 #79
That's an awesome clip! deucemagnet Jul 2012 #80
I dunno... BrendaBrick Jul 2012 #82
I had to come back to this, because damn... redqueen Jul 2012 #111
+1 truebrit71 Aug 2012 #112
By the seed of magical thinking that is planted in most of our heads as children... redqueen Aug 2012 #113
"turning science into a new religion"... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2012 #114
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