That's the question that I had. (Reply #25)

In the discussion thread: One big difference between the US and Scandinavia/Western Europe that Bernie keeps missing. [View all]

Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:37 PM

DanTex (20,709 posts)

25. That's the question that I had.

Let me rephrase. Why is it that when I challenge Bernie on guns, I get accused of using guns as a "wedge issue", whereas when other people challenge, let's say, Hillary on single payer or $15 or whatever, somehow that is not considered "wedge".

Why not? Next time someone challenges Hillary for not supporting single payer are you going to accuse them of using healthcare as a "wedge"?

Since you asked, I'll also respond to this.

The real problem that needs addressing is that people in this society, many of them, are in huge trouble in their lives, and there is no positive societal mechanism to proactively work with such people. Most gun violence could be prevented by such programs. For example, why not have funded support programs for anyone who has income insecurity, whether they qualify for unemployment or disability or not (most people fall through the cracks and are receiving neither benefit).

No, that's not the "real problem." At least not when it comes to gun violence. What you are describing is a problem, but the real problem is that there are too many guns and not enough gun regulations.

As I've mentioned in many other responses, Western Europe doesn't have a significantly lower rate of violent crime than we do. We're somewhere in the middle of the developed world. Where we stick out is in homicide, and gun homicide specifically. The arguments about other social ills or inequality or whatever else do not fit the data.

The reason why we are an outlier when it comes to homicide and not other categories of violent crime is because guns are much more lethal than other weapons. A crime committed with a gun is much more likely to result in serious injury or death. An escalating argument or fight is much more likely to wind up with someone dead if there are guns in the picture.

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63 replies	Author	Time	Post
One big difference between the US and Scandinavia/Western Europe that Bernie keeps missing. [View all]	DanTex	Nov 2015	OP
Do those countries have a military-entertainment-industrial complex...	Cosmic Kitten	Nov 2015	#1
They watch the same movies and play the same video games we do.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#3
Tex, where do you stand on guns?	Aerows	Nov 2015	#60
I think it is your blind spot, not Bernie's. Gun violence is a function of poverty...	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#2
Of course, because there's 10 times as much poverty in the US as in Europe.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#6
Norway has a very low poverty rate and low gun violence rate compared to the US	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#11
DanTex won't offer his prodigious	Aerows	Nov 2015	#62
You keep on ranting	Aerows	Nov 2015	#61
Unless you're discussing an issue Bernie is comfortable discussing such as income inequality,	Cali_Democrat	Nov 2015	#4
Why does it seem the only violence that matters to some people is gun violence?	Kalidurga	Nov 2015	#5
Another NRA talking point. Gun violence is far more lethal than other forms of violence.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#7
So you don't want to address the underlying causes of violence I get it	Kalidurga	Nov 2015	#8
Of course I do. You just want to ignore the central role that guns play.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#9
Well it's really hard to take this serious	Kalidurga	Nov 2015	#10
Violent crime rates in the US and Europe are similar, this is a simple fact, verified by statistics.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#14
You mis-characterize his statement	dreamnightwind	Nov 2015	#12
What makes gun violence a "wedge issue" and not things like healthcare.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#15
That's all you respond to from that thoughtful post?	dreamnightwind	Nov 2015	#21
That's the question that I had.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#25
Well it seems to me you just want a way to go after Bernie on this	dreamnightwind	Nov 2015	#59
Have you noticed that we keep getting nowhere on guns? I have, and that means that whatever	Bluenorthwest	Nov 2015	#22
Have you noticed that we keep getting nowhere on income inequality?	DanTex	Nov 2015	#26
Except there's a difference you seem to have missed..	Kentonio	Nov 2015	#33
Actually, polls show that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of stronger gun laws.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#36
Hmm..	Kentonio	Nov 2015	#44
I don't know where the wedge is. People have accused me of bringing up a "wedge issue" in this OP.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#51
Both Clinton and O'Malley have tried to make it a wedge issue to be fair	Kentonio	Nov 2015	#56
Only in as much as Sanders has tried to make things like Wall Street a wedge issue.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#57
They have substantative differences on Wall Street. Guns, not so much.	Kentonio	Nov 2015	#58
Well, there you go, Dan	leftofcool	Nov 2015	#48
Well done for saying the exact opposite of what I just said and attributing it to me..	Kentonio	Nov 2015	#49
Who decides?	Admiral Loinpresser	Nov 2015	#35
How do you determine whether someone is using an issue to divide people or whether someone is	DanTex	Nov 2015	#38
One quick example:	Admiral Loinpresser	Nov 2015	#43
Accusing your opponent of being in the pocket of Wall Street would be	DanTex	Nov 2015	#52
So the people who support Wall St.	Admiral Loinpresser	Nov 2015	#53
He's right on target: It's the income inequality.	Gregorian	Nov 2015	#13
This is clearly false, because Western Europe, Canada, etc. have similar rates of violent crime,	DanTex	Nov 2015	#16
You can't be entitled to your own set of "facts"	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#17
It's simple to look up the crime statistics comparing the US and Western Europe.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#18
Look up published studies as crime and violent crime as a function of poverty.	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#19
Look up studies comparing gun availability, gun violence and violent crime in the US and Europe.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#23
You are so far away from your original point it is obvious you know you are wrong...	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#27
My point has remained the same: the US has a gun violence problem that is unique in the	DanTex	Nov 2015	#31
He sees this clearly.	Admiral Loinpresser	Nov 2015	#37
I don't hear it in his speeches. Like I said in the OP, he likes to draw comparisons to	DanTex	Nov 2015	#39
I have heard it in his speeches more than once.	Admiral Loinpresser	Nov 2015	#45
So then, if Western Europe had more guns they would have the same statistics, right?	Hiraeth	Nov 2015	#20
Yes, if they had more guns and our same lax gun laws, their homicide rate would be much higher.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#24
Any Europeans want to chime in here .... ? Not sure but,	Hiraeth	Nov 2015	#28
How is that an insult? It's praising them on their strong and successful gun regulations.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#40
because you are saying the exact opposite. The case is being made that	Hiraeth	Nov 2015	#54
If your analysis was correct (it isn't) then there would be no such thing as regional concentration	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#29
Huh? Of course there's regional concentration of crime.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#32
Crime per capita by region accounts for density. Go look at the numbers.	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#41
There's more crime per capita where there is more density.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#42
There is way more poverty in more dense areas. Inner city poverty..hello?h	Bread and Circus	Nov 2015	#46
Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, but that doesn't explain the difference in violent crime.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#50
All of which is true.	Gregorian	Nov 2015	#30
I agree, we are talking about two things: guns and economic inequality.	DanTex	Nov 2015	#34
K & R	SunSeeker	Nov 2015	#47
We can't threaten the interests of the Oligarchs. Because gun violence?	Romulox	Nov 2015	#55
Name one position in which Hillary disagrees with Sanders on gun control	AgingAmerican	Nov 2015	#63

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